This should start an interesting fight :-)

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jskeen

jskeen

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I just ran across this interesting factoid the other night. Totally unrelated to anything, but that's why it's called casual conversation. Do you, or would you, as a veteran, render a hand salute while in civilian clothes?

Remember, this is the formal authorization of an optional behavior, anybody who want's to keep doing it the original way is of course welcome to.


"The most recent change, authorizing hand-salutes during the national anthem by veterans and out-of-uniform military personnel, was sponsored by Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, an Army veteran. It was included in the Defense Authorization Act of 2009, which President Bush signed on Oct. 14.

The earlier provision authorizing hand-salutes for veterans and out-of-uniform military personnel during the raising, lowering or passing of the flag, was contained in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008, which took effect Jan. 28, 2008."



Apparently, the float-around-on-the-ocean contingent don't get to play though. At least not while active. Would they after separation? Would they want to?



"NOTICE***UPDATED INFORMATION as of April 2, 2009***NOTICE

From Adm. Gary Roughead, CNO: BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION, NAVY PERSONNEL DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN UNCOVERED; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED."

"ALMAR 052/08
MSGID/GENADMIN/CMC WASHINGTON DC CMC//
...BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION,
MARINES DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN
UNCOVERED. LET THERE BE NO CONFUSION; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED..."
 
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define salute?

Is placing your hand over your heart a salute? If so, then I still salute, if not, then This former Petty Office doesn't salute any longer either.
 
Different country but same job and same form of respect. Canadian Forces never salute while out of uniform or without a headress. I would personally never salute while not in uniform as it's been "drilled" into our heads not to.
 
Why would this start a fight?

Pre-change:

§ 301. National anthem


(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem— (1) when the flag is displayed— (A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and


(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Post-change:
Public Law 110-417
SEC. 595. MILITARY SALUTE FOR THE FLAG DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES NOT IN UNIFORM AND BY VETERANS.Section 301(b)(1) of title 36, United States Code, is amended by striking subparagraphs (A) through (C) and inserting the following new subparagraphs:
`(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; `(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and `(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and'.


Are anyone's rights really being abridged?
 
Of course not. I was being facetious about it starting a fight. An interesting discussion about the finer points of "once a ........, Always a ........" or perhaps "darn flyboys think they can get away with anything" was all I was expecting.

One would think that the intent of the law was to allow veterans and out of uniform military personnel a way to distinguish themselves from the civilian population and to formally permit a behavior that many veterans and veterans organizations have adopted for years. No one is being required to do anything, or change their actions UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO.

Interestingly enough these changes were made to two of the 3 passages relating to civilian courtesy to the flag. It was not made to the code relating to reciting The Pledge of Allegiance.
 
What is your definition of uniform? I personally will throw a salute whether in uniform or in civilian attire if I feel that a salute has been earned and is deserved. There is a long list of traditions that go way back, but not all of them are followed.

Last fall I watched dozens of veterans in suites salute a flag draped casket and anyone that thinks they are wrong for doing so can turn their heads and not watch us showing what we feel is the utmost sign of respect.
 
I doubt I could change if I wanted to. It would feel strange to salute if I wasn't in uniform. A soldier's habits die hard.

I'd say no to saluting while in uniform or without cap, cover, helmet or headgear, unless it was during a formal ceremony like flagraising or honor guard, some others.

.
 
As a USAF vet (enlisted & commissioned) and a Viet Nam veteran, I do not salute in civilian attire.......hand over heart during National Anthem.

I have no problem with what 'WOLFTAT' does..........and if former military in civilian clothes at a veteran's funeral wants to render a hand salute......go for it!!! I would probably do the same in that situation......I sure wouldn't knock anyone for doing it!!!

Military customs & courtesy live long and hard........you learn it in 'Basic Training' and you 'LIVE IT' from there on!!!


Barney
 
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I am also a USAF vet and under normal circumstances will not salute during the National Anthem. I will always respect the National Anthem facing the flag and with my hand over my heart.
 
Neil,
You are absolutely right, if a Salute is warranted, then it should be given. I don't think the national anthem at a Yankees game is reason enough. Flag draped Casket along with a few other reasons are ok.

wolftat said:
What is your definition of uniform? I personally will throw a salute whether in uniform or in civilian attire if I feel that a salute has been earned and is deserved. There is a long list of traditions that go way back, but not all of them are followed.

Last fall I watched dozens of veterans in suites salute a flag draped casket and anyone that thinks they are wrong for doing so can turn their heads and not watch us showing what we feel is the utmost sign of respect.
Click to expand...
 
I'm with Neil and Brian on this one . I would salute a fallen soldier OR Sailor . At the racetrack , my hand is on my heart , with the hair on my arms standing everytime I hear the song and see the flag . That's just me .
 
I believe that if anyone has any respect for this OUR country and for those that have defended Her then if the situation is appropriate by all means render a salute.

Is there any harm done? NO, it is just a sign of respect to Our national anthem, OUR flag, OUR people, and OUR Country, and OUR way of life. And I say loud and clear DAMN anyone of those that do not believe in OUR way of life and try to force their beliefs upon us.

May Almighty God bless and protect us from all that oppose us!
 
If you want to salute while in Civilian cloths, go right ahead. I personally don't. I haven't worn my uniform sense I got out 10 years ago, I am getting a Regimental Jacket done up and I will take up saluting when I wear that.....
 
Personally I don't see any problem with saluting the flag or our great men and women serving in the military as you pass them on the street or in an airport. I am a navy vet 67-71 and I would have been proud to return a salute to some civilian on the street or the airport. The closest I ever came to respect was right out of boot camp walking through the airport in Atlanta, really proud of my new uniform, when this small boy said look mom there's Popeye. I prefer to shake hands and say thank you to the military men and women and place my hand over my heart for the flag. I don't care how someone shows respect for this country and our military as long as they show respect. To everyone in the military and all the vets I say THANK YOU.

Ray
 
i have to say......as retired navy.....as it's always been with me.....in uniform, covered....salute....civilian clothes.....hand over the heart.

there's no debate about it
 
I retired from the Army over 4 years ago and like most it was drilled into me about not saluting while in civvies. However, as a member of a couple of veterans organizations there is a push for veterans to render the salute during the playing of the National Anthem. The purpose as stated earlier is to not only show respect to our country but to distinguish them as a veteran. Same thing goes for wearing medals and ribbons on a suit jacket. It brings recognition to the individual as a veteran. Me personally, I don't wear the ribbons and as far as saluting in civvies, I do it when I'm with a group of veterans but rarely do when I'm by myself. In that instance I put the hand over the heart. Just my 2 cents.
 
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