Stabilizing vs. dried

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Hippie3180

Hippie3180

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So, can someone explain when blanks should be stabilized vs. dried for turning? Do all burls need to be stabilized or no, soft woods? Help I'm confused.

When is it necessary to get stabilized for turning?
 
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I am not sure there's a single answer to your question. Generally, stabilizing is most beneficial when you have soft, "punky" woods that would shred or disintegrate when turned. The stabilizing resin gives the cells of the wood some rigidity and strength to prevent breaking down. I am sure there is a wide spectrum of what would be considered "punky".

Stabilizing also helps with burls (even if they are not punky), since there is no single grain direction - again, the stabilizing resin provides structure, which can reduce tear-outs when turning. I have also had some feedback that hybrid blanks made with stabilized wood and resin turn better than wood that was not stabilized - the stabilizing helps the wood adhere to the resin better, so that it can be turned with less likelihood of separation of the resin and the wood.

Regarding drying wood - any wood that you want to stabilize must be completely dry - not just looks dry, it must measure as dry, either with a moisture meter, or by weight loss during oven drying. TurnTex has a pretty good explanation of the drying requirements:

"The first thing is to make sure your material has less than 5% moisture content (preferably 0%) and clean. All wood needs to be dried prior to stabilizing, even wood that you purchase kiln dried! Wood that has been sitting in your shop will never be less than Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) due to humidity in the air no matter how long it has been sitting. In most parts of the country, EMC is around 10-12%. Since moisture meters are not accurate below 6%, forget using one! The best way to assure your already air dried blanks are as dry as possible is to place them in your toaster oven at 220° F (104° C) for a minimum of 24 hours. Then remove the blanks from the oven and immediately place in a zip lock freezer bag or other air tight container until cool to room temperature. This is necessary because a super dried, hot piece of wood will start picking up moisture from the air as soon as they start to cool down."

I am not well versed on the need for dry wood for turning. There are some projects (example: bowls) where the turner will begin to turn a "Green" (meaning wet) blank to get to an approximate shape, then dry the wood before completing the turning. I am sure there are more experienced folks on this site that can add to this.
 
KMCloonan said:
I am not sure there's a single answer to your question. Generally, stabilizing is most beneficial when you have soft, "punky" woods that would shred or disintegrate when turned. The stabilizing resin gives the cells of the wood some rigidity and strength to prevent breaking down. I am sure there is a wide spectrum of what would be considered "punky".

Stabilizing also helps with burls (even if they are not punky), since there is no single grain direction - again, the stabilizing resin provides structure, which can reduce tear-outs when turning. I have also had some feedback that hybrid blanks made with stabilized wood and resin turn better than wood that was not stabilized - the stabilizing helps the wood adhere to the resin better, so that it can be turned with less likelihood of separation of the resin and the wood.

Regarding drying wood - any wood that you want to stabilize must be completely dry - not just looks dry, it must measure as dry, either with a moisture meter, or by weight loss during oven drying. TurnTex has a pretty good explanation of the drying requirements:

"The first thing is to make sure your material has less than 5% moisture content (preferably 0%) and clean. All wood needs to be dried prior to stabilizing, even wood that you purchase kiln dried! Wood that has been sitting in your shop will never be less than Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) due to humidity in the air no matter how long it has been sitting. In most parts of the country, EMC is around 10-12%. Since moisture meters are not accurate below 6%, forget using one! The best way to assure your already air dried blanks are as dry as possible is to place them in your toaster oven at 220° F (104° C) for a minimum of 24 hours. Then remove the blanks from the oven and immediately place in a zip lock freezer bag or other air tight container until cool to room temperature. This is necessary because a super dried, hot piece of wood will start picking up moisture from the air as soon as they start to cool down."

I am not well versed on the need for dry wood for turning. There are some projects (example: bowls) where the turner will begin to turn a "Green" (meaning wet) blank to get to an approximate shape, then dry the wood before completing the turning. I am sure there are more experienced folks on this site that can add to this.
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So, if wood is hard and oily (and kiln dried)it's probably a better choice to turn without stabilization?

Stabilization prevents issues with "punky" spots, gives some body to soft wood, and helps resin adhere fir hybrids.
 
Hi Michele, I also am interested in what the more experienced folks here have to say on this one.

I did just pick up the equipment and supplies necessary to stabilize on my own. Curtis at TurnTex is a wealth of information and generous with his time and knowledge.

In addition to what Kevin (@KMCloonan) noted, my research indicates that stabilizing also:
  1. Makes the wood less susceptible to changes in humidity/moisture. This is why most knife makers use stabilized wood for their knife scales.
  2. Adds weight to the wood.
  3. Makes the hardness on burl and, highly figured, spalted, etc. wood more consistent for turning.
  4. Makes softer woods more durable.
The above bullets are from my online research. My comparatively limited turning experience seems to validate all of these except for #1 and that is because I live in a very dry environment.

l decided to try my hand at stabilizing because I have recently gotten my hands on a number of species of wood from Southeast Asia. They are beautiful, but feel light and relatively soft. I'd prefer anything I spend the time sleeving and making a kitless pen with to be more durable.

Lastly, there are some species that don't take stabilization well, they are the extremely hard and/or oily woods. So you likely wouldn't need to stabilize them anyway.

If I have gotten anything wrong, I'm counting on the aforementioned more experienced folks to set me straight. :cool:
 
I just wanted to add:
A. Oily woods cannot be easily stabilized ( maybe not at all). It seems that the oil in the wood cannot be replaces with resin
B. Really dense woods cannot be stabilised and also there is no need to

Not my words i asked for some stabilizing info/services and thats what i ve been told. The guy stabilises wood for knife scales. Maybe there is a really powerful vacuum pump/system that can impregnate all woods no matter what.
 
d_bondi said:
Hi Michele, I also am interested in what the more experienced folks here have to say on this one.

I did just pick up the equipment and supplies necessary to stabilize on my own. Curtis at TurnTex is a wealth of information and generous with his time and knowledge.

In addition to what Kevin (@KMCloonan) noted, my research indicates that stabilizing also:
  1. Makes the wood less susceptible to changes in humidity/moisture. This is why most knife makers use stabilized wood for their knife scales.
  2. Adds weight to the wood.
  3. Makes the hardness on burl and, highly figured, spalted, etc. wood more consistent for turning.
  4. Makes softer woods more durable.
The above bullets are from my online research. My comparatively limited turning experience seems to validate all of these except for #1 and that is because I live in a very dry environment.

l decided to try my hand at stabilizing because I have recently gotten my hands on a number of species of wood from Southeast Asia. They are beautiful, but feel light and relatively soft. I'd prefer anything I spend the time sleeving and making a kitless pen with to be more durable.

Lastly, there are some species that don't take stabilization well, they are the extremely hard and/or oily woods. So you likely wouldn't need to stabilize them anyway.

If I have gotten anything wrong, I'm counting on the aforementioned more experienced folks to set me straight. :cool:
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This all makes sense to me, and concurs with what I've read.

We're teetering on considering the stabilizing equipment, but I dunnno. 🤔 Maybe I'll just send stuff to you. 😂
 
I've also been back and forth on this. Buy stabilization equipment or not, and so far, I haven't spent the money. What I have done instead is kick up my applications of CA to any pieces that seem softer or possibly needing a little help. I heavily coat the wood giving the CA time to soak in as I turn, reapplying frequently as needed and so far, all has been OK. I haven't had any failures that I know of, and things have stayed firm and durable.

I have turned a number of blanks that were stabilized by others and they worked, but I didn't really like the change in texture and didn't always find the stabilizing effect to be complimentary to the wood. I'm moving more to hybrid resin and wood or pure resin blanks more and more, so I don't know if my decision to go into stabilizing is going to ever happen, costs of resin casting were more than enough for now....lol.
 
The stabilizing process replaces air space with resin. Resin cannot force its way into wood unless you use pressure. Stabilizing utilizes vacuum to remove air. Once the air is removed and the pressure brought back to 'normal' the resin seeks it's way into the voids left by the air. Oils and solid timber does not stabilize well because there is no to little air to remove.

Anyone with more scientific theory can correct my statements but this is how I see the process.
 
Unless the wood is brittle and falling apart, you have the option of using an ultra thin ca to saturate it as you turn small items like pens and stoppers, instead of stabilizing. These ultra thin ca's wick in to stabilize the fibers as you go. Turning technique will also come into play. I know some stabilize everything from pinecones to wood and they think it fixes any risk of blowouts, but that's really not the case. I think stabilizing objects submerged in resin is a waste of time because the resin will hold them and I can saturate them with the ca as I go. Wood like buckeye Burl or boxelder, that get very dry is what I usually stabilize. There's no need to stabilize everything. Besides, it's a longe process when done properly. I do both, stabilize and use ultra thin ca. it just depends on the casting I'm doing. For larger casts and turnings I like to stabilize the dry wood. For the ultra thin ca I like the Gluboost "teal label" because I use it as a finish also, but they have a "red" label ultra thin that works great for sealing and saturation, but it's not flexible for a finish.
 
JohnU said:
Unless the wood is brittle and falling apart, you have the option of using an ultra thin ca to saturate it as you turn small items like pens and stoppers, instead of stabilizing. These ultra thin ca's wick in to stabilize the fibers as you go. Turning technique will also come into play. I know some stabilize everything from pinecones to wood and they think it fixes any risk of blowouts, but that's really not the case. I think stabilizing objects submerged in resin is a waste of time because the resin will hold them and I can saturate them with the ca as I go. Wood like buckeye Burl or boxelder, that get very dry is what I usually stabilize. There's no need to stabilize everything. Besides, it's a longe process when done properly. I do both, stabilize and use ultra thin ca. it just depends on the casting I'm doing. For larger casts and turnings I like to stabilize the dry wood. For the ultra thin ca I like the Gluboost "teal label" because I use it as a finish also, but they have a "red" label ultra thin that works great for sealing and saturation, but it's not flexible for a finish.
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I'm actually glad to know CA is an option, of course then you are kind of committed to a glossy finish I would guess.

Stabilizing equipment seems like a big commitment, that I'm just not ready for, so CA is much better for me.
 
I would add one minor caveat to the general rule that stabilization of oily woods is generally ineffective and unnecessary . I stabilize quite a few spruce , larch and pine cones . Even though I start with oven dried cones , they continue to bubble for 2 days or more . I attribute that to the presence of volatiles which have some vapour pressure at high vacuum , probably terpenes . They will also be present to some degree in the associated woods , a rotten piece of which you may want to preserve for family or other historical reasons .

I usually stop the stabilization process after 24 -36 hours , as nothing is gained for my end uses . I agree with John that objects held in resin shouldn`t need stabilization because they are fully supported and it is easy to harden them with CA if required , BUT , it is a royal pain to do so to 100 or so individual spruce scales as I work them down to a S&P shaker .

No Michele , CA does not commit you to a high gloss finish . Just stop Micromesh at 3200 or whatever level of gloss you want . Some use fine steel wool or other techniques discussed in threads on this forum .
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that stabilization of wood with voids or cracks can sometimes result in what I refer to as a crystal formation in pockets in the wood. This occurs as the wood is cured and a bit of the juice is trapped in the voids/cracks.

For this type of wood, the ultra thin CA is much better. Stabilization is intended to fill the pores/porous areas but, unlike the epoxy and urethane resins, is too thin to fill voids and cracks properly.
 
Hippie3180 said:
I'm actually glad to know CA is an option, of course then you are kind of committed to a glossy finish I would guess.
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Not at all. Once you sand and get it all smooth and level, you can knock the shine down with s piece of brown paper sack, extra fine steel wool or burlap to the desired sheen you want. Also as stated above, omitt some of the micro mesh final grits. I like to leave the shine off of woods when people say they like the feel of wood. I like to apply a finish to preserved and protect the wood. Any finish will cover the wood feel but they don't notice as much when it's a dull finish.
 
JohnU said:
Not at all. Once you sand and get it all smooth and level, you can knock the shine down with s piece of brown paper sack, extra fine steel wool or burlap to the desired sheen you want. Also as stated above, omitt some of the micro mesh final grits. I like to leave the shine off of woods when people say they like the feel of wood. I like to apply a finish to preserved and protect the wood. Any finish will cover the wood feel but they don't notice as much when it's a dull finish.
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Excellent, so good to know this. Very helpful. Thanks to all for your input.
 
Soft woods benefit greatly from stabilizing, not just punky wood. Even some hard woods with larger capillary channels benefit from stabilizing too. Soft woods to make them harder and consistent in density, hard woods to make them smoother and consistent. Woods like Oak and other woods that have a large difference in the soft/hard wood of a single growth ring area - greatly benefit from stabilizing. (Sorry, I forget the names of these two parts within a growth ring. And no, I am not referring to sap wood vs hard wood.)

In the past, quite a few problems were posted for out of round blanks with some of them being caused from sanding the softer wood between the harder wood layers. It is easy to do. This is where stabilizing helps - hardening the soft wood between the hard layers. Look at the pine in the link below. That is what I am talking about. It sure helps when the soft wood is stabilized to be equally hard as the darker layer.
www.twincreeksloghomes.com

1x6 Yellow Pine Tongue and Groove Flooring - C & Better

1X6 Southern Yellow Pine T&G Flooring. Naturally Dense and Durable. Unique Grain Shape and Golden Yellow Color. Kiln-Dried and Ready for Finishing.
www.twincreeksloghomes.com www.twincreeksloghomes.com

There are a number of woods like this. But consistent grained wood like hard maple may not benefit as much if at all.
 
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In short - both make the material easier to a acheive a smooth, durable finish. All should be a at least dried to teh prescribed level.
 
The two wood types in a single yearly tree ring are basically called "early wood and late wood" or in some instances called "spring wood and summer wood". Early wood is the softer tissue, late woo is the harder tissue - I think. Stabilizing hardens the softer tissue to make finishing more consistent across both types.
 
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