Sonic cleaner verses vacuum what's the difference

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bruce119

bruce119

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OK I went out and bought a H.F. sonic cleaner on sale with 20% discount a good deal at $45.00. So this has to do with the thread here.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=63199
I am thinking I just waisted my money, All I want to do is get rid of some air bubbles introduced when poring and stirring.

Now I start with the sonic tank with warm water about 100 that's what always do use hot tap water. I was putting it in the pressure tank and drawing a vacuum. Do let me remind you that at this point before I do anything there is very little air in the resin that is PR Silmar 41.

Now with the vacuum I was pulling a full -29 and I guess I was boiling the resin and degassing the styrene. That in effect put a LOT of tiny bubbles in the resin and possibly changes the composition of the resin. So I fixed that by only pulling less than -15 worked pretty good.

So now I got the sonic cleaner today. I know Don is big on this. I tried basically the same thing. Heated the resin to about 100 now the resin is just about bubble free just a few from poring no cyst. has been added yet. I got my resin in a cup that is in a tub with water that is in the tank with water. Now I turn on the sonic and the resin starts to fizz kind of like a pop just being opened. Air bubbles are forming on the bottom and as they rise most dissolve some stay suspended and some combine with other small bubbles rise to the top and burst. Now I do several cycles and the same thing the bubbles keep forming at the bottom and fizz on the way up. After several cycles I stop and look into the resin it is full of tiny bubbles. Just like what I saw with the high vacuum.

So where is the air coming from is the sonic vibration degassing the styrene the same way the high vacuum did. If so Isn't this not a good thing as I was advised with the high vacuum.

So now I left the resin sit for 15 - 20 more minutes out of the tank on the table and it for the most part cleared up. Then I added the cayt. and mixed and pored just fine so far it is sitting out in the shop curring as I type.

So you guys in the know what's up those who used sonic is this what you experienced. Any suggestions

thanks
 
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Bruce,
I don't know how what you describe is happening. Here is what I do.

  • Put hot tap water in the cleaner and turn on the heat function. Yours may or may not have a heat function.
  • Pour uncatalyzed resin into a glass jar (salvaged from the kitchen) and place the jar into water.
  • Turn on the cleaner and let it run while I prep blanks...usually three or four cycles or more. Each cycle is 8 minutes.
  • Remove from the cleaner and dry off the jar.
  • Add catalyst and stir gently. I usually don't stir for much longer than a couple of minutes. I can tell by a slight change in the resin color that the catalyst is mixed.
  • Pour the PR into the molds and start bubble management if any appear.
As the weather is getting warmer I will probably not use the heat function for the entire time. If I several molds the PR is getting stringy for the last bit. The heated resin starts to set up quicker.

I hope this little bit of info helps.'
Do a good turn daily!
Don

​
 
Hi Don

That is basically what I do. Yes I have the heat I only used it to keep it at about 100. When I did the test and the book says it goes up to about 140 I thought that was too hot. But that's not the issue. Did or do you notice your resin releasing bubbles. This is what observed the resin had very little bubbles in it to begin with. I followed your procedure basically that you out line above. I notice bubbles forming int the bottom of the resin and they would rise and most would fizz away as they roze some made it to the top. I ran about 3 cycles at the longest setting I think 8 minuets each. Each cycle more little air bubbles would form at the bottom and fizz as they rose. Now after I ran the sonic cycles the resin resin was full of tiny air bubbles. Then I let it sit for another 15 minutes or so and it was clear and fine.

I guess my big question is do have this happen. It just seems to me that the sonic vibrations are removing dissolved gasses in the resin much like vacuum. But I don't really it's just an observation and a guess. I am just tying to figure out what is going on. I was told in a previous thread that putting the resin under vacuum to the point that it removed dissolved gasses in the styrene was not a good thing.

Do you see any of these bubbles forming in your resin when you start your sonic process.

I am just trying to get a handle what is going on. It's working just trying to understand it better.

thanks
 
Bruce,
Yes, I see the bubbles form and rise to the top. Quite a few at first and they seem to dwindle. But, I'm not sure if they dwindle or not. I haven't really watched that closely. As soon as it comes from the cleaner ZI add the catalyst and pour. Maybe I should let it sit another few minutes before adding the catalyst and pouring. I even think it appears clearer after having been "zapped" for 30 minutes or so.
Don

bruce119 said:
Hi Don

I followed your procedure basically that you out line above. I notice bubbles forming int the bottom of the resin and they would rise and most would fizz away as they roze some made it to the top. I ran about 3 cycles at the longest setting I think 8 minuets each. Each cycle more little air bubbles would form at the bottom and fizz as they rose. Now after I ran the sonic cycles the resin resin was full of tiny air bubbles. Then I let it sit for another 15 minutes or so and it was clear and fine.

Do you see any of these bubbles forming in your resin when you start your sonic process.

I am just trying to get a handle what is going on. It's working just trying to understand it better.

thanks
Click to expand...
 
Ultrasonics will indeed degas liquids. If you want to see the effect in the extreme, take a little soda which has a lot of dissolved carbon dioxide and put some in a cup like you do the PR. PR does have dissolved gases - air and perhaps styrene vapor both of which will come out of solution when exposed to ultrasonics. The technique has long been used in chemical laboratories to get air out of solvents required for some analytical equipment.

The one thing I do a little different, is I never heat the PR. Even an unheated ultrasonic cleaner will heat the resin just from the vibration of the molecules. The only question I can't answer is how much you reduce the concentration of styrene during the process. If this is something that you think is effecting the quality of your casts, buy some pure styrene and add various amounts from 2-20% and see what happens. Its something I thought of doing at one time, but lately haven't been doing much clear casting.

As for wasting money, ultrasonics does reduce the chance of getting small voids. Is it 100%? No. Are there other uses for the equipment? Yes.
 
its_virgil said:
Bruce,
I don't know how what you describe is happening. Here is what I do.

  • Put hot tap water in the cleaner and turn on the heat function. Yours may or may not have a heat function.
  • Pour uncatalyzed resin into a glass jar (salvaged from the kitchen) and place the jar into water.
  • Turn on the cleaner and let it run while I prep blanks...usually three or four cycles or more. Each cycle is 8 minutes.
  • Remove from the cleaner and dry off the jar.
  • Add catalyst and stir gently. I usually don't stir for much longer than a couple of minutes. I can tell by a slight change in the resin color that the catalyst is mixed.
  • Pour the PR into the molds and start bubble management if any appear.
As the weather is getting warmer I will probably not use the heat function for the entire time. If I several molds the PR is getting stringy for the last bit. The heated resin starts to set up quicker.​


I hope this little bit of info helps.'
Do a good turn daily!
Don​
Click to expand...

Don, this is very similar to what I do (as I got the method from your website, I think).

Is there a better method than an acetone or DNA bath to save the glass mixing jar for reuse?

The glass works well, but if I don't clean it immediately, I usually lose the jar.

Thanks
 
PenMan1 said:
Don, this is very similar to what I do (as I got the method from your website, I think).

Is there a better method than an acetone or DNA bath to save the glass mixing jar for reuse?

The glass works well, but if I don't clean it immediately, I usually lose the jar.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I think Don will agree but for the most part if you want to save the mixing container you need to wash it rite away before the PR sets. I use acetone. Now how much time depends on how much is left in the container. If you have a lot say a few onces about a 1/2" or more on the bottom you need to get it out before it sets or you will be chiseling it out. Now just a coating you have more time it will take longer to set. The more mass thicker or deeper the resin the hotter/faster it cures.

Now I use clear plastic cups to mix my resin and just throw the cup away. BUT there getting harder to find you need the crystal clear cups not the flimsy frosted and red cups they have now. The resin will eat through them and you will have a big mess. But the harder clear plastic cups works good and holds up just fine. Hefty has them wall mart used to carry them till they did away with hefty. The Hefty Crystal Clear 18 oz. and 9 oz. works great.

good luck
 
Thanks Bruce.... And for the record, the Benjamin Bucks are the best blanks I have ever turned.... and good sellers, too. They were definitely worth the wait!
 
I can't help with cleaning the jars... I don't clean them. I let the PR left over set up and use the jar one or two more times then toss it. I get 3 or so jars a week from the kitchen so jars are pretty plentiful...not worth my time to try to clean them. Sorry I'm no help here.

It there is any PR left after I pour then I add shredded money to the jar, mix it up good and pour that into a slotted mold and make shredded money blanks. If it is not enough to make a full blank then I just add to it next time.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

PenMan1 said:
Is there a better method than an acetone or DNA bath to save the glass mixing jar for reuse?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Bruce,
I wanted to give my .02 worth, I use the sonic cleaner pretty much the same way you and Don are using it and have not seen any bubbles, however I go one step further and us my vacuum to 20 inches this helps seat my pot lid and then I take it up to 40psi,
I use the glad reusable food storage containers for mixing and Andy I use carburetor cleaner to clean with, stuffs cheap and works well. I am using the same containers for 2 years now.:biggrin:
 
1TJTurner said:
I use the glad reusable food storage containers for mixing and Andy I use carburetor cleaner to clean with, stuffs cheap and works well. I am using the same containers for 2 years now.:biggrin:
Click to expand...

I knew SOMEBODY would know how to save the jar! Us pen makers don't waste much! Working in a boat dealership, carb cleaner is abundant and cheap!

Thanks Jim, I'll give that a try tonight!
 
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