Marmotjr
Member
Is there any software out there to help design segmented pens? There's things like CutList and an app for design segmented cutting boards, so I'd think there might be a segmented pen one too.
Software?
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jttheclockman
Member
It is called IMAGINATION. Todays society needs to have everything layed out for them. Use your imagination. Experiment and learn from it. you will feel more rewarded and the piece will be more represented of you and not someone elses design. 
Marmotjr
Member
Right.
No.
I'm not talking about using premade designs.
I'm talking about designing, from scratch, YOUR OWN segmented pen design, and then having a piece of software HELP layout the wood for cutting and gluing.
The software is just a tool.
Of course, we could take that point of view and go with no CAD software, or Drawings at all even! Why, cell phones, all phones in general even, remove the need for proper communication! Why even bother using the car, when you can walk over to the other person and talk directly! Thanks for the ludittical answer though.
No.
I'm not talking about using premade designs.
I'm talking about designing, from scratch, YOUR OWN segmented pen design, and then having a piece of software HELP layout the wood for cutting and gluing.
The software is just a tool.
Of course, we could take that point of view and go with no CAD software, or Drawings at all even! Why, cell phones, all phones in general even, remove the need for proper communication! Why even bother using the car, when you can walk over to the other person and talk directly! Thanks for the ludittical answer though.
jttheclockman
Member
ludittical Looked that one up and did not find a deffinition but i am sure it would not have been nice. Did the person who invented the car or the cell phone have cad drawings?? I think not. There are no drawings that I know of. There is however a whole slew of examples shown here by some very talented people that had no cad drawings when they made their segmented pens. Take a look. www.penturners.org/forum/f179/no-comments-just-post-new-segmented-pens-likes-111419/
There is also a whole forum here that talks the segmenting pen talk. Take a look. Segmenting - International Association of Penturners Maybe something in there will help you.
You can always refer to the true segmenting world and there are plenty of formulas, tutorials, videos and also patterns. These are used in the more traditional world of bowl turning, plate turning, open vessel, and other whimsical designs. Some of those maybe carried over to the pen blank world. But you have to remember you are working with a very small canvas. Good luck in your venture and yes I do know segmenting.
By the way I am sure you could always one of those drawing programs such as corel draw or others to create something if you feel the need to. But to me a simple pad and pencil is all that is needed. Lengths of tubes used would be helpful to lay out the design or just wing it. the more you do the more your mind is stretched and challenged.
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Don Rabchenuk
Member
Luddite | Definition of Luddite by Merriam-Webster
Luddite | Definition of Luddite by Merriam-Webster
With the onset of the information age, Luddite gained a broader sense describing anyone who shuns new technology. Origin and Etymology of luddite.
Luddite | Definition of Luddite by Merriam-Webster
With the onset of the information age, Luddite gained a broader sense describing anyone who shuns new technology. Origin and Etymology of luddite.
jttheclockman
Member
Thanks for the definition. Shun new technology.
That is why the world is walking around bumping into things while they text on their new cell phones. Maybe we can make an app for designing segmented pens. I know, we can create a 3D model of a segmented pen on our 3D printers. That is new technology. You would think we were building a space rocket here. Feel free be the first to develop some cad drawings or design that App or some other technical breakthrough for segmented pens. Be the first kid on the block. Have at it.
leehljp
Member Liaison
I am a tweener. Between John T and Marmotjr. :biggrin:
I can "see" or visualize what I want to segment but I can't figure the angles out - without considerable trial and error. Too much so and I will give up for a while. I sure wish I knew how to use CAD or sketchup. I can do design and layout of flat things and make them appear in 3D to some extent, but I just never got the hang of CAD/Sketchup.
I know how to glue 3 squares in a corner, edge to edge and then stack them to make a nice segmented blank. That is fairly easy. But to do 4 sections, or 5 segments requires precise compound angles. Sure with I had something that would make it simple or give me the compound angles needed. I can cut precise compound angles, I just have trouble figuring the different compound angles needed.
A side note on the compound and complex angles:
Back in the late '90s, when I was in Japan, one of our apartment complexes for missionaries was being remodeled. In the center of the living rooms of most apartments there was a 1.5 meter square recess added into the ceiling. My "contractor" buddy (Bill) wanted crown molding done in the recess. The Japanese construction team was run by the latest technology CAD engineer (Japanese of course). He listened to Bill, thought about it and said he would have to lay it out on the CAD. Several days later he came back and said that there was not way that the crown molding could be laid out at those angles (52 & 38) and everything still fit. Bill argued with him but he as adamant. "The computer says it can't be done" he said. Bill went home, got his compound miter saw out and made a 1.5 meter square crown molding cut at the precise 52° and 38° and carried it back. The construction crew and foreman were amazed that a man's idea could be done when a computer said it couldn't.
The computer is only as good as the operator allows it to be. We still need imagination.
I can "see" or visualize what I want to segment but I can't figure the angles out - without considerable trial and error. Too much so and I will give up for a while. I sure wish I knew how to use CAD or sketchup. I can do design and layout of flat things and make them appear in 3D to some extent, but I just never got the hang of CAD/Sketchup.
I know how to glue 3 squares in a corner, edge to edge and then stack them to make a nice segmented blank. That is fairly easy. But to do 4 sections, or 5 segments requires precise compound angles. Sure with I had something that would make it simple or give me the compound angles needed. I can cut precise compound angles, I just have trouble figuring the different compound angles needed.
A side note on the compound and complex angles:
Back in the late '90s, when I was in Japan, one of our apartment complexes for missionaries was being remodeled. In the center of the living rooms of most apartments there was a 1.5 meter square recess added into the ceiling. My "contractor" buddy (Bill) wanted crown molding done in the recess. The Japanese construction team was run by the latest technology CAD engineer (Japanese of course). He listened to Bill, thought about it and said he would have to lay it out on the CAD. Several days later he came back and said that there was not way that the crown molding could be laid out at those angles (52 & 38) and everything still fit. Bill argued with him but he as adamant. "The computer says it can't be done" he said. Bill went home, got his compound miter saw out and made a 1.5 meter square crown molding cut at the precise 52° and 38° and carried it back. The construction crew and foreman were amazed that a man's idea could be done when a computer said it couldn't.
The computer is only as good as the operator allows it to be. We still need imagination.
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larryc
Member
I like to say that computers are dumb, they don't do what you want them to - they do what you tell them to do.
KenV
Member
I have two segmented software programs that can be adapted to fit pens if the patterns are regular. Either will work with staves and or rings.
The design target was hollow forms and bowls, but pens are just of scale and precision.
The cost is not trivial. But designs can be saved.
Both were developed by segmented turners.
The design target was hollow forms and bowls, but pens are just of scale and precision.
The cost is not trivial. But designs can be saved.
Both were developed by segmented turners.
Rick_G
Member
Might take a look at woodturner pro Software Downloads | segmented turning software | Woodturner PRO
May or may not do what you want but at least you get a 30 day trial to see if it will before putting out your money. I have it and like it but have never tried it for pens.
May or may not do what you want but at least you get a 30 day trial to see if it will before putting out your money. I have it and like it but have never tried it for pens.
KenV
Member
Woodturner Pro is one of the program I have. It is well done and I find it worth the $69 cost.
Try it you might like it.
It will not do many of the lamination style pen designs.
Try it you might like it.
It will not do many of the lamination style pen designs.
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Hey Thad! Don't invent "Skew Technique"... study and try to learn from the Masters... :wink:
Use what tools, prior accessible knowledge and shared lessons are available to your own progression in your craft. (AKA: design assistants).
Yo Yo Ma will have no career as a solo cellist after he no longer can "Imitate" the Standard Classic Repertoire.
Paganini could not compose well, but his technique for violin is a standard series of life-long lessons to aspire to (good luck).
Verracchio is not a house-hold name, but he did teach, instruct and inspire many students... including Leonardo da Vinci (who - horrors - was made to "imitate" the work of the masters.) Leo did quite well.
And Modest Mussorgsky was a wonderful composer and pianist, but his "kernels of masterpieces" did not reach acclaim until they were studied, imitated and improved by others (i.e.: Night on Bald Mountain - Rimsky Korsakov; Pictures at an Exhibition - Maurice Ravel).
Using the available tools and learning your craft (aka: segmenting), should include (IN MY OPINION ONLY!) studying what others have done, refining your skills, and then producing the best you can produce.
(...and, When you hear Ravel's "Pictures at an Exhibition" by the Cleveland Orchestra, it is always credited as an arrangement of M. Mussorgsky - with no apology!). Those who inspire use deserve credit!
Apologies for the long explanation to a much shorter response, but I graduated with a degree in Music Education and was expected to teach students the next 40 years to "Study, imitate, and be inspired by Master's of the art). In fact, I was to be judged and evaluated by my ability to teach students to imitate!
Now for the much shorter response:
I use an excel spreadsheet to diagram a side view and and end view of my segments. Cumbersome, not a fancy CAD program, and it simply shows me what I can also diagram with a pencil and paper, but much more accurately and cleanly (my penmanship/pencilmanship is rather poor).
Finally, I have no problem with sharing concepts on segmenting - this is only the beginning! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and an eye for what materials are comparable are the real challenge (you can buy a lathe and chisels and be told how to use them, then it is up to you to take the next 2,5 10 years to perfect your skills!)
Use what tools, prior accessible knowledge and shared lessons are available to your own progression in your craft. (AKA: design assistants).
Yo Yo Ma will have no career as a solo cellist after he no longer can "Imitate" the Standard Classic Repertoire.
Paganini could not compose well, but his technique for violin is a standard series of life-long lessons to aspire to (good luck).
Verracchio is not a house-hold name, but he did teach, instruct and inspire many students... including Leonardo da Vinci (who - horrors - was made to "imitate" the work of the masters.
) Leo did quite well.And Modest Mussorgsky was a wonderful composer and pianist, but his "kernels of masterpieces" did not reach acclaim until they were studied, imitated and improved by others (i.e.: Night on Bald Mountain - Rimsky Korsakov; Pictures at an Exhibition - Maurice Ravel).
Using the available tools and learning your craft (aka: segmenting), should include (IN MY OPINION ONLY!) studying what others have done, refining your skills, and then producing the best you can produce.
(...and, When you hear Ravel's "Pictures at an Exhibition" by the Cleveland Orchestra, it is always credited as an arrangement of M. Mussorgsky - with no apology!). Those who inspire use deserve credit!
Apologies for the long explanation to a much shorter response, but I graduated with a degree in Music Education and was expected to teach students the next 40 years to "Study, imitate, and be inspired by Master's of the art). In fact, I was to be judged and evaluated by my ability to teach students to imitate!
Now for the much shorter response:
I use an excel spreadsheet to diagram a side view and and end view of my segments. Cumbersome, not a fancy CAD program, and it simply shows me what I can also diagram with a pencil and paper, but much more accurately and cleanly (my penmanship/pencilmanship is rather poor).
Finally, I have no problem with sharing concepts on segmenting - this is only the beginning! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and an eye for what materials are comparable are the real challenge (you can buy a lathe and chisels and be told how to use them, then it is up to you to take the next 2,5 10 years to perfect your skills!)
Hey Thad! Don't invent "Skew Technique"... study and try to learn from the Masters... :wink:
Use what tools, prior accessible knowledge and shared lessons are available to your own progression in your craft. (AKA: design assistants).
Yo Yo Ma will have no career as a solo cellist after he no longer can "Imitate" the Standard Classic Repertoire.
Paganini could not compose well, but his technique for violin is a standard series of life-long lessons to aspire to (good luck).
Verracchio is not a house-hold name, but he did teach, instruct and inspire many students... including Leonardo da Vinci (who - horrors - was made to "imitate" the work of the masters.
And Modest Mussorgsky was a wonderful composer and pianist, but his "kernels of masterpieces" did not reach acclaim until they were studied, imitated and improved by others (i.e.: Night on Bald Mountain - Rimsky Korsakov; Pictures at an Exhibition - Maurice Ravel).
Using the available tools and learning your craft (aka: segmenting), should include (IN MY OPINION ONLY!) studying what others have done, refining your skills, and then producing the best you can produce.
(...and, When you hear Ravel's "Pictures at an Exhibition" by the Cleveland Orchestra, it is always credited as an arrangement of M. Mussorgsky - with no apology!). Those who inspire use deserve credit!
Apologies for the long explanation to a much shorter response, but I graduated with a degree in Music Education and was expected to teach students the next 40 years to "Study, imitate, and be inspired by Master's of the art). In fact, I was to be judged and evaluated by my ability to teach students to imitate!
Now for the much shorter response:
I use an excel spreadsheet to diagram a side view and and end view of my segments. Cumbersome, not a fancy CAD program, and it simply shows me what I can also diagram with a pencil and paper, but much more accurately and cleanly (my penmanship/pencilmanship is rather poor).
Finally, I have no problem with sharing concepts on segmenting - this is only the beginning! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and an eye for what materials are comparable are the real challenge (you can buy a lathe and chisels and be told how to use them, then it is up to you to take the next 2,5 10 years to perfect your skills!)
Shouldn't you be enjoying your vacation!! Maybe do some diving and check out the beautiful scenery :wink:
jttheclockman
Member
Unless there is some new wave of segmenting to about to hit the scene, everything seen here has been done and done many times over. There are formulas for compound angles and here is a good free site for that
http://jansson.us/jcompound.html
But visualizing segmenting is in the eye of the beholder. The one thing I have said over and over the canvas you are working with is so small so incorporating some fancy design is not possible. Unlike a bowl or plate where feature rings are the norm.
Combining elements is what makes some segmented pens stand out along with using varied materials.
I am truely interested in new ideas and I hope there are some that come along and shared.
http://jansson.us/jcompound.html
But visualizing segmenting is in the eye of the beholder. The one thing I have said over and over the canvas you are working with is so small so incorporating some fancy design is not possible. Unlike a bowl or plate where feature rings are the norm.
Combining elements is what makes some segmented pens stand out along with using varied materials.
I am truely interested in new ideas and I hope there are some that come along and shared.
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mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Hey Thad! Don't invent "Skew Technique"... study and try to learn from the Masters... :wink:
Use what tools, prior accessible knowledge and shared lessons are available to your own progression in your craft. (AKA: design assistants).
Yo Yo Ma will have no career as a solo cellist after he no longer can "Imitate" the Standard Classic Repertoire.
Paganini could not compose well, but his technique for violin is a standard series of life-long lessons to aspire to (good luck).
Verracchio is not a house-hold name, but he did teach, instruct and inspire many students... including Leonardo da Vinci (who - horrors - was made to "imitate" the work of the masters.
And Modest Mussorgsky was a wonderful composer and pianist, but his "kernels of masterpieces" did not reach acclaim until they were studied, imitated and improved by others (i.e.: Night on Bald Mountain - Rimsky Korsakov; Pictures at an Exhibition - Maurice Ravel).
Using the available tools and learning your craft (aka: segmenting), should include (IN MY OPINION ONLY!) studying what others have done, refining your skills, and then producing the best you can produce.
(...and, When you hear Ravel's "Pictures at an Exhibition" by the Cleveland Orchestra, it is always credited as an arrangement of M. Mussorgsky - with no apology!). Those who inspire use deserve credit!
Apologies for the long explanation to a much shorter response, but I graduated with a degree in Music Education and was expected to teach students the next 40 years to "Study, imitate, and be inspired by Master's of the art). In fact, I was to be judged and evaluated by my ability to teach students to imitate!
Now for the much shorter response:
I use an excel spreadsheet to diagram a side view and and end view of my segments. Cumbersome, not a fancy CAD program, and it simply shows me what I can also diagram with a pencil and paper, but much more accurately and cleanly (my penmanship/pencilmanship is rather poor).
Finally, I have no problem with sharing concepts on segmenting - this is only the beginning! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and an eye for what materials are comparable are the real challenge (you can buy a lathe and chisels and be told how to use them, then it is up to you to take the next 2,5 10 years to perfect your skills!)
Shouldn't you be enjoying your vacation!! Maybe do some diving and check out the beautiful scenery :wink:
Have to stay out of the sun for a few of the worst hours! :island::island::island:
Isn't that considered pessimistic thinking? I was told that ANYTHING is possible. A person just has to have the dedication to realize the end goal. If people always believed it, when they were told it isn't possible, we would never progress. Edison was told that a light bulb wasn't possible...
One person's impossible, is another's ability.
I have seen some very intricate designs made by the Gisi brothers. There have been others, but the Gisi's stand out to me right now. So, I believe if someone wanted to, they could take it ever farther and more intricate.
Rink
Member
Try Sketchup. It's free.
jttheclockman
Member
Go for it. If you look back I have been a member here since 2005 and I always promoted segmenting and in fact it was I who encouraged the segmenting forum so no need to preach to me segmenting. I encourage all to develop some more segmenting pens and develop those different techniques. Anything is possible so prove me wrong please please please. I do not know how else to say it. If my statement provokes you or anyone else to prove me wrong then my mission is accomplished.
How do you think the Celtic Knot was created, the 360 herringbone, and I can go on and on. Think outside the box and use your imagination.
Prove me wrong, lets go.
CREID
Member
Go for it. If you look back I have been a member here since 2005 and I always promoted segmenting and in fact it was I who encouraged the segmenting forum so no need to preach to me segmenting. I encourage all to develop some more segmenting pens and develop those different techniques. Anything is possible so prove me wrong please please please. I do not know how else to say it. If my statement provokes you or anyone else to prove me wrong then my mission is accomplished.
How do you think the Celtic Knot was created, the 360 herringbone, and I can go on and on. Think outside the box and use your imagination.
Prove me wrong, lets go.
The gauntlet has been tossed!
jttheclockman
Member
I have tossed that gauntlet for many many years here.
Here is what started it all
www.penturners.org/forum/f179/welcome-segmenting-forum-104206/
Here is what started it all
www.penturners.org/forum/f179/welcome-segmenting-forum-104206/
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Marmotjr
Member
There's more of an answer I was looking for :tongue:. Hopefully No offense was taken with my fairly aggressive response. But yes, The car and cellphone both had drawings.
I'll check this one out and play with it.
@Rink- Already fairly proficient with Sketchup, and I've thought of ways to use it. It's fairly easy to create a segmented blank, and then drop a cylinder through it to see what it will look like, but it's far more difficult to create a segmented cylinder and then expand it to a blank shape to see the initial cuts.
That's what I'm looking for some CAD application where one can design, using imagination :tongue:, the finished turning, and then have it project the initial blank from that. You then have to figure out how to make that blank.
I'm still new enough that visualizing Square Blank -> round tube is difficult. I can visualize how my 3d printer will recreate something, but that's with a couple years experience. Same here, I just don't have the experience. If there's a tool that helps accelerate that learning curve, all the better.
I see these beautiful segmented pens posted here, and While I can enjoy looking at them, I want to know what the original looked like before turning. I was the kid always tearing things apart to see how they worked.
Thanks for the replies (all of you!), sorry to ruffle the feathers!
jttheclockman
Member
No feathers ruffled here. It can be a little daunting of seeing a square blank and then see that design change shape when turned round and that is half the fun. You surprise yourself and learn from it. Being book smart only gets you so far. You eventually have to add in street smarts element. Just cutting angles at 45 degrees as opposed to 60 degrees changes the look. Same cuts. The Celtic knot is a perfect example of that.
Again there are many examples in the segmenting forum and photo album where people show the blank before turning. The library has many examples of this also. Take the basic ideas and expand. add, subtract elements the sky is the limit.
It can be a little daunting of seeing a square blank and then see that design change shape when turned round and that is half the fun. You surprise yourself and learn from it. Being book smart only gets you so far. You eventually have to add in street smarts element. Just cutting angles at 45 degrees as opposed to 60 degrees changes the look. Same cuts. The Celtic knot is a perfect example of that. Again there are many examples in the segmenting forum and photo album where people show the blank before turning. The library has many examples of this also. Take the basic ideas and expand. add, subtract elements the sky is the limit.
Marmotjr
Member
Well, just whipped up a blank in Sketchup, and then tried to drop a cylinder through it and intersect the faces. Problem is, Objects in SU are only textured on their surface, not the interior, so I was just left with blank surfaces on the cylinder. If anybody knows how to extend textures, let me know!
jttheclockman
Member
Someone mentioned Gisi pens. Here is a link to some of his pens
Gisi Pens
Unless you are talking about his metal working there is nothing proprietary to his segmenting that has not been done. It is a matter of angles and straight pieces. He use color plywood to give dramatic effects but still cut the same. The addition of dots and trim rings is done all the time here.
What we segmenters learn to do is build jigs to make consistent cuts which become very important.
Gisi Pens
Unless you are talking about his metal working there is nothing proprietary to his segmenting that has not been done. It is a matter of angles and straight pieces. He use color plywood to give dramatic effects but still cut the same. The addition of dots and trim rings is done all the time here.
What we segmenters learn to do is build jigs to make consistent cuts which become very important.
RobS
Member
I'm not a sketchup guy but I do use Solidworks, they are a bit similar. Instead of droping a cylinder into the part. Try doing a cut, draw a circle and the rectangular perimeter and cut that section away.
PM me, and I can email you some screen shots.
RobS
Member
1) Ok, so I modeled up a pen blank
2) then I made 2 thin cuts in the shape of a half ellipse
3) I then drew a circle which I will use as a side cut, as seen in the first image.
View in Gallery
This is the result of the side cut.
View in Gallery
If we use a smaller diameter, you see the impact the smaller turned diameter will have on the pattern
View in Gallery
I did this to try to model what people had done with coke can pens, and wanted to see what would happen.
Hope that helps.:beer:
2) then I made 2 thin cuts in the shape of a half ellipse
3) I then drew a circle which I will use as a side cut, as seen in the first image.
View in Gallery
This is the result of the side cut.
View in Gallery
If we use a smaller diameter, you see the impact the smaller turned diameter will have on the pattern
View in Gallery
I did this to try to model what people had done with coke can pens, and wanted to see what would happen.
Hope that helps.:beer: