Short cuts??

[rlharding]

It's been quiet again so I will be the devils advocate.

I know the search engine isn't the best, but why don't people use it anyway? I am alway surprised when questions are asked about 'how to' when the topic has been discussed to death and back again. Often in the same week the question is posted.

My tendency is to direct people to the search engine or the library. I often could provide the answer and frequently do, but when someone asks, for example, 'how do I mix casting resin? how do I get it to come out of the mold? can I use .......' my eyes cross.

Even if someone can't get the search engine to work they could certainly spend some time reading the threads in the subject matter section.

This and the need to try CA/BLO and nothing else drives me mad. What about the learning curve and developing the skill and insight/knowledge??? It's one thing trying a process and then asking questions about how to improve, it's another thing to not attempt to try something and just expect to get everything laid out on a plate.

People new to turning who have just got their first lathe and don't even know how to use their tools just want to dive in, bypass learning anything themselves and simply doing what they have been told to do. They don't even know why they are doing it, what difference it makes if they use a different method or different tool. It's the equivalent of not knowing how to drive a car yet going to a dealership, buying a Ferrari and then asking the car dealer how to drive it, 'what gears do I use when I am first starting off, what rpms do I change to the next gear, where does teh gas go?

Take some time making mistakes. Don't start with a cigar or a majestic or snake wood or other tricky woods until you know what you are doing. Get a bunch of the less costly kits (slims can be had for less than $1.70) get some cheap wood from your wood pile or broken furniture or even 2x4s and make pens. Your family and friends will love them no mater how they turn out. Use the time to learn what your lathe can do, play with the speed settings, learn how to use the tools, how to sharpen them, do a search for pen making on the web and explore the sites that come up, check out their library and watch/read things of interest, search utube............and read the articles in the IAP library and some of the threads, follow the links....

When you feel comfortable with your lathe, your tools, knowledge base, then go up to the next level and keep going. There are some fantastic pen makers and casters on this site and don't think you can just ask how they did it and then go off and do it yourself.

You have to do the apprenticeship.

 

[alamocdc]

Careful, Ruth. You're starting to sound like one of my mentors.[}]

And FWIW, I agree. My dad has a saying. It has to do withing paying one's dues.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Ruth,
Don't you know by now that this is a "gimme" and "I want it now" world today...
I agree with the basis of your post... it's been much more fun learning how and what to do than if I had just been handed the knowledge and started working... I've been turning about 7 years and so far on a scale of 1-10 I would guess my knowledge level is about 1.2 or so... but I'm having more fun trying to learn... I've learned a tremendous amount from just reading the IAP and a couple of other forums that I visit... I read far more than I post.. I'm here every day just looking at what the experts have to say.

 

[Verne]

Ruth, well said.
Vern

 

[fiferb]

Feel better?

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I Totally Agree With You Ruth.

I've made more than my share of "Mistakes" and I learned something from each one. The day I stop making mistakes is the day I rest in peace.

 

[Malainse]

Ruth, a number of times I have not agreed with some of your posts.

BUT, this one you are correct...... Use the search, library, trial and error. Still having issues: ASK...

As for the Ferrari...If you give them the cash, I am sure they will teach you how to drive...

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I agree with the search function, Ruth, but not with the other part!

I have only been turning since October or November, but I jumped right in...practiced with the tools making spindles, and then I made a cigar as my first pen, and made ALL the mistakes I could have made. My second one was better, and by the third pen, I was making recognizable pens that actually worked! I don't really like slimlines, so I didn't want to start by making a bunch of pens that I didn't want...and while the KITS may be more expensive, the tubes are cheap!

My method of self-learning is to dive right in, mess it up, and learn by doing...sure, it's not the preferred method of slow incremental baby steps, but it's fun! (However, as a qualifier - I DID read EVERYTHING on the IAP site before trying that first cigar)

Andrew

 

[wdcav1952]

Bravo, Ruth! It is good to see the gospel I preach is believed north of the US border as well. Rich K from the Yahoo Group smacked my hand on this subject several years ago, and referred me to their library. It remains the best single tip I have ever received!

 

[leehljp]

I agree with most of what you said but with over 20 years for forum and bulletin board interaction and experience, have come to a different conclusion on the "search".

SEARCHES:
I agree that people should try the search more often, but at the same time, I don't think that the "Default" answer to repetitive questions should be "Do a search!" without some kind of direction. Unless it is explicitly stated that a forum is NOT a community, but a "technical advancement forum", - then it generally IS a communtiy of "like interested" people.

Telling a new comer to "Do a search" without a hint of what to look for - is basically stating that "I did it this way and you can too - and you are not important to me or this community until you can contribute". "Community" and the growth of community often means repeating and repeating again, and in addition suggesting that one should do a search on "Out of round" or "mandreless" or "CA Blotches" or . . .

IS COMMUNITY WORTH IT?
IS that (community) what is wanted here? Then it means temperance in our attitudes towards those that don't know. I suggest "searches" often, but also try to give a hint or encouragement on what to look for. IF repeating and repeating gets on my nerves, (and it does at times ) I take a step back and let others suggest.

I will admit that I do get irritated at people who state things such as - "I have tried CA and it doesn't work" or "Wood should never have any finish over it" . . . "so can you recommend to me . . . ."
If a "know it all" attitude comes through, I will either leave it alone and let them figure it out for themselves, or respond with a 180° answer.

 

[loglugger]

If everyone used the search the only thing left would be (show your pen) and the fourm would eventually die. Some place on the net is the answer to just about anything you want to know if you know how to find it. I think some like to ask questions just to partisapate in the group when they start out, it gives them a starting point. [?][?]
Bob

 

[gketell]

there is a strong social aspect to this and all web forums, Bob. But some little bit of self start needs to be done before you start asking questions. Asking a master chef who is talking about how to make a 103 step master dish "how do I boil water" doesn't stand you in good stead. But if you have researched and instead ask "in step 98 why do you do X instead of Y?" then you are still participating but also showing that you care enough to do some work on your own too.

And, yes, Ruth, do be careful. Others have been banned for being aggressive about this attitude. [B)][xx(][V]

GK

 

[GBusardo]

Originally posted by loglugger

If everyone used the search the only thing left would be (show your pen) and the fourm would eventually die. Some place on the net is the answer to just about anything you want to know if you know how to find it. I think some like to ask questions just to partisapate in the group when they start out, it gives them a starting point. [?][?]
Bob

Ruth, I could not agree with Bob more. I know at one point I have posted a very similar post. There will be posts beaten to death, but sometimes it's worth it. How many CA posts have there been in the last few years? Well, someone recently posted a link to to show a demo of a CA/BLO finish. Funny thing is that what I thought I heard was not exactly what the person said, but it made sense to me. On the first try, the CA finish was one of my all time best. With all the differnt methods of turning and finishing, there is bound to be something new coming from something old.
Just look at the members list, while we have 5000 or so members, the vast majority no longer post. If most people were not patient with me when I started posting, I wonder if I would still be an active member. There will always be someone to answer a newbies question, if it bores you, pass it by. No harm in that.

 

[Jarheaded]

I ask questions sometimes without looking through a couple hundred threads for my answer because sometimes I just don't feel like doing hours of searching for something that someone else would know without having to search for it. I will also answer a question if I can, without telling someone to go search for it. I thought we were here to help each other, not to tell each other to go search for it. Like Gary said, if you don't like the topic, keep going. Sometimes it seems as though the earlier members have no patience for the newer members that don't know that things have"been beaten to death" and don't really know how to use the search engine. We don't all have the experience with search engines and CA finishes and we need to ask without being put down. This happens to be one of the topics that I feel has been beaten to death, but it seems to keep popping up, doesn't it?

 

[ed4copies]

Interesting, Johnnie.

I believe there is a time frame where people have posted a couple hundred times and don't mind, at all, rehashing an idea that has been "beaten to death" (and I agreee, this is one such topic). So, feel free to jump in and give the answers that some of us have typed 20 times before you arrived.

Ruth,

The search function sucks. (Sorry Jeff, but it does!) I have used it dozens of times to no avail. However, when "the same old question" arises and you and I are "having a bad day" and don't feel like answering again, JJ (Johnnie Jarheaded) will jump in. He can type the LONG answer and we can stop by to add the "fine points".

Let's not get too difficult to get along with!!
New people show up every day, try to make them feel welcome. IF YOU don't want to answer their questions (cause you have answered it before), let someone else answer. (Personally, I have typed the difference between types of resin no fewer than 5 times - last time the question was asked, would you believe, it was answered - WELL - WITHOUT my input?????? I know, I didn't believe it either, but the forum managed WITHOUT ME!!!!)

So, next time you read a question that really trips your trigger, pass on commenting - leave that to someone else. THERE REALLY WILL BE SOMEONE ELSE!! And the answer will be good (feel free to improve it, when your attitude improves!!)

FWIW!!

 

[gerryr]

Originally posted by ed4copies


the forum managed WITHOUT ME!!!!)

[:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0]

 

[ed4copies]

Or Gerryr, if I recall[:0][:0][:0][:0][:0]

(Not quite as shocking)

 

[gerryr]

Ed, I think it would manage just fine without either of us, or Cav either, although grammar and spelling would probably suffer.

 

[wdcav1952]

No comment about the two bozos on the bus above me. My point was that by referring someone to the library or the search function they will learn far more than the original question. Check out our library, go to the files or whatever it is called at the Yahoo Group and you will find literally hours of reading that will advance your knowledge well beyond a simple answer to your single question. For example, I do not yet cast acrylic blanks nor do I have powder coating equipment. I would never be so without motivation as to ask "what do I need to buy and/or do to cast acrylic blanks?" Likewise, I would never ask for a tutorial on powdercoating without a little personal research. No one hear wants to restrict question asking. It is just that some of us would like the questioner to show a little more initiative than to pick up their spoon to be fed.

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by wdcav1952

No one hear wants to restrict question asking. It is just that some of us would like the questioner to show a little more initiative than to pick up their spoon to be fed.

Cav, Where is your grammar checker?

 

[Texatdurango]

I don't mind the new members asking questions that have been answered 8,134 times in the past six months, I just wish they would be honest!

My pet peeve is this guy... "Hi, I've been lurking here for several months reading all the posts and have a question I can't find the answer to, Which CA finish is best?"

Why not just be honest and say... "Hi, I'm too lazy to flip through the threads in the finishing forum and read a few of the threads on CA so I'll ask the same old question again...."

If so many feel the same way about these repetative questions, why do we continue answering them day in and day out?

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by leehljp

Originally posted by wdcav1952

No one hear wants to restrict question asking. It is just that some of us would like the questioner to show a little more initiative than to pick up their spoon to be fed.

Cav, Where is your grammar checker?

Lee, like me it is tired and frustrated.

 

[Jarheaded]

Ed, I will try to fill in with whatever questions I can answer. I don't have the experience of a lot of the others here, but that is why I ask questions too. I could just google for an answer and then sort through all the misinformation, but I would rather ask someone like yourself or Ruth. I want to learn more and I don't want to read it somewhere in history. The art of turning changes constantly and I personally would like to keep up with the present and look towards the future. I have read a lot of the threads from the forum and if I still have a question about something, should I fear asking it? If anyone thinks that they know it all, and have nothing left to learn, even from a new turner, maybe they should climb a mountain and wait for those seeking their knowledge. I have learned a lot from reading the threads posted by people like you, but I have learned more asking the direct question that I am seeking the answer to. I promise not to ask if there is a difference in resins or if CA can stick your finger to your lip, but I try to ask real questions and am looking for real answers. If you are too tired or cranky to answer a question, there is noone making you read it or answer it. We all have bad days. But you Ed, have answered some questions that I have asked and I appreciate the fact that I received an educated answer and was not told to go look it up. And others here have asked questions that could have been answered by reading pen kit instructions, but for some reason chose to ask here instead. Maybe it was because of long work hours and too frustrated to go and do a search. The next morning things were clearer and the pens went together well. We all need to ask a question at some point, and we have to understand that others do also, but some questions are just due to laziness and those do annoy me also. Maybe some have forgotten that at one time, they didn't have all the answers that they wanted either or the ability to find it on their own.

 

[mdburn_em]

Originally posted by ed4copies

Interesting, Johnnie.

I believe there is a time frame where people have posted a couple hundred times and don't mind, at all, rehashing an idea that has been "beaten to death" (and I agreee, this is one such topic). So, feel free to jump in and give the answers that some of us have typed 20 times before you arrived.

Ruth,

The search function sucks. (Sorry Jeff, but it does!) I have used it dozens of times to no avail. However, when "the same old question" arises and you and I are "having a bad day" and don't feel like answering again, JJ (Johnnie Jarheaded) will jump in. He can type the LONG answer and we can stop by to add the "fine points".

Let's not get too difficult to get along with!!
New people show up every day, try to make them feel welcome. IF YOU don't want to answer their questions (cause you have answered it before), let someone else answer. (Personally, I have typed the difference between types of resin no fewer than 5 times - last time the question was asked, would you believe, it was answered - WELL - WITHOUT my input?????? I know, I didn't believe it either, but the forum managed WITHOUT ME!!!!)

So, next time you read a question that really trips your trigger, pass on commenting - leave that to someone else. THERE REALLY WILL BE SOMEONE ELSE!! And the answer will be good (feel free to improve it, when your attitude improves!!)

FWIW!!

To add to what Ed said, the answer will probably come from someone or several someones that you can REMEMBER asking very similar questions.

Also in agreement with Ed, I don't like the search function because I can't find posts I know are here. It doesn't matter how much effort I put into searching, I get everything but that one post I'm looking for.

I just wait. Somebody new will ask that question again and other former-newbies will answer. Some of the old timers will even post a link to the thread I want.

 

[DCBluesman]

It seems to me that there are two separate yet related issues. The first one deals with an unwillingness to make mistakes. I understand that as much as the next person, because I have no particular talents and even less skill. That being said, very little of what I have learned on the forum has come from detailed tutorials or detailed answers. I don't know about the rest of you, but I also don't learn a great deal from my successes. I learn far more from my failures. Not only do I learn more, but my ability to re-use the lessons is greatly enhanced if I learn myself, through trial and error.

The other issue seems to be a desire not to rehash the same old questions. When I joined the forum there were only a few hundred members and 50 posts was a heavy day. The grand total of active and archived posts was less than 10,000. It was realistic to think of reading them all and I did. There were also only a couple of dozen active participants, so I feel certain that folks like Russ Fairfield, Don Ward, Scott Greaves and Anthony Turchetta got real tired of this "Blues-guy" asking all the dumb questions. Fortunately, they never made me feel dumb about my questions nor stupid if the same information was available in a hundred different places on the forum and the internet. (I specifically remember not having any idea what a "chuck" was and I was astounded to hear that there is more than one variety.) In that same vain, I do not get frustrated when someone asks a question because they have come to a screeching halt through lack of understanding. Trying enough to get that far is enough to earn an answer...not that answers need to be earned.

My suggestion to anyone who has questions about making pens is to try first. Try reading the other posts. Try the "Standard Search" function. Couch your question in terms of how you have gotten to where you are and where are you having difficulty. Heck, by the time you get that far, 75% of your questions will be answered. But do not hesitate to ask. The long-term members may not jump in with the answer, but those who have been here awhile, or even those who are new but have experience will undoubtedly answer your questions. And if not, drop me an email. I'll give it a shot.

 

[alamocdc]

Like Lou and others I asked more than my share of questions when I first joined the forum (my post count will attest to this[:I]). I remember one particular question by another member. One answer to that question sent me down what has now turned out to be many a path. Experimental path, I mean. The answer given was, "Think about it and try it." So I did just that. And posted the failed results. Not as a, "Okay, what do I do now?", but as a, "Okay, I tired something and look at the mess I made. Does anyone think it's as funny as I do?" This was followed by an email and subsequent phone call. The pointers garnered from this conversation led to me finding my own to accomplish my goal. And I haven't stopped experimenting yet. But that's just me. Being an educator I full understand that all minds do not work alike. Some need much more detailed information to accomplish what others can do from looking at a photograph. And this site has a large number of folks who don't mind providing such. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Lou. I think the point of this thread encompasses two related issues. And there are some here who will cover either, or both.

 

[leehljp]

In my line of work, it is my goal to train others to train others. Usually, it is those who "just learned" something that make the best teachers to the next group or generation because it is "fresh" on their minds. I have noticed that while old timers do a great job here, I also see those who learned last month jump in and say "Hey I just had that problem too and here is how I solved it." It may not be a matter of a new technique, but a matter of how it is said.

COMMUNITY develops best in an open environment where tolerance for dumb and repetitive questions is allowed - as well as "rebuke" to someone who doesn't want to make a mistake and wants to be spoon fed.

That said - THE FUTURE OF CREATING:

With progression of society, changing cultures and academically focused education world wide, more and more repetitive questions will be the norm. In the "old days" there were a lot more "common sense" people who knew how to observe and deduce from a set of circumstances. OH the joy of discovery! That is going the way of the dodo bird by the natural progression of societies, and it is also the reason for 'liability prevention labeling' on everything. "Don't put your fingers under a running lawn mower", Don't touch an electric line with a pool cleaning pole". We are moving into this direction and it will not be stopped. People can't figure out things anymore. It has been given to them (spoon fed) in "lists" from kindergarten on - and deductive reasoning skills are all but gone.

Everything has to be explained in a dissected and cross dissected manner. Most young adults today around the world (in industrialized nations) have been raised this way. The problem with this, to me, is that it has taken all the fun and joy of discovery out in order to reduce the 'risk' to the learner, which in turn reduces liability to the educator. And the greater problem to old timers and deductive reasoning people is that it "ain't" going away. It is here to stay. "Future change" is here world wide. We just have to get used to it and get over it! I don't particularly like it but I have to accept it.

And in the midst of all of this, there are people here who will pick up the challenge and help with even the dumb and repetitive questions. These guys have learned to adapt! And THAT is what COMMUNITY is!

RANT OFF! [}]

 

[arioux]

Hi,

I join IAP because it was a forum, not a search engine. Yes i make my share of search and try and error. But when i see a question that have been ask many times, if i can answer it i will, if not, i will still follow the thread. New people are coming weeks after weeks and with new peoples comes new ideas. Just read my signature for the rest.

And Ruth, if you had used the search engine, you would have see that this topics have been covered many times, yet we have two pages of comment on it, including some new and interesting ones, wich makes it worth discussing again, like any other question. That's what a forum is all about is'nt it?

Alfred

 

[ElMostro]

I normally stay out of these topics but I will chime in. Yesterday was my one year anniversary with AIP, yeiii. One of my first questions was, (OK don't make fun of me) the question was; "Why are blanks generally cut 3/4" x 5 1/2" [:I]. The reason I asked was bec I was, at that time, turning slim lines and Euros and it seemed like a waste of wood and time to start with a 3/4" blank. The answers I got were mixed but one individual sent me a flaming PM letting me know that the "answer was in the archives so go do a search cause he was tired of answering dumb questions" and I did look but never did find the specific answer. Another member posted on the forum that he sent me a PM (and I was thinking crap, I'm getting flamed again) to my surprise (why a surprise? Cause I thought I was going to get flamed again) the second member provided a general answer and a link to another site with a more detailed answer with recommended sizes for different pen kits. The result of this initial experience was that a quit asking questions on the forum and to this day when I see one of those "newbie" questions my first reaction is Ouch!! I do however ask questions via PM to a few members that have been very helpful; have those members and AIP made a difference in my penturning skills? Of course they have, I went from not knowing why a blank was cut to 3/4" x 5 1/2 to getting a pen in the AIP front page in one year (sorry, I had to brag ).

The other side of the coin is some say "experiment and figure it out then ask questions"...well I do recall one newbie posting one day that he had figured out this amazing way to finish pens and wanted to share and asked if anybody else had ever tried this, his new discovery? A CA finish (yea, I know what you are thinking) and what happened? He was made fun of by some members for "sharing" his discovery. I remember one comment specifically..."so what's that now? 1001 ways to do a CA finish". Come to think of it I never did see that newbie post again.

My point is, for a new turner what may seem obvious to other may be a REAL question...if you can be helpful and desire to do so then provide an answer, help a newbie that is asking the question. Just because someone asks a question and you know the answer doesn’t mean that THEY are asking YOU. Nobody here is forcing to you to answer the question (or even read it for that matter).