Semantics might cure the hostile threads

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
greenmtnguy

greenmtnguy

Local Chapter Leader
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
1,689
Location
Chester, Vermont, USA.
"The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation."
In the case of a recent thread that disintegrated rather quickly, semantics comes into play. Rather than call someone ignorant which implies stupidity, unaware means you do not have the facts, but shows respect. I have a friend that would not allow politics or religion to be discussed in his house. Why? They are too personal and to attack the thought meant attacking the person. Close friends in a direct conversation where inflection and facial expressions show emotion would defuse conversations to turn into a dogfight on forums. I could have a heated discussion with someone who shows respect and choose not to agree, but the respect would still be there, hopefully both ways.
Excerpt from Joe South song
"Walk A Mile In My Shoes"

(As recorded by Joe South)
JOE SOUTH

If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour
If we could find a way to get inside each other's mind
If you could see me through your eyes instead of your ego
I believe you'd be surprised to see that you'd been blind.

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
And before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
I'm ignorant of the post to which you refer. But, the word ignorant does not imply stupidity, unless you are ignorant of the meaning of the word. Neither of which makes us stupid.

I can't seem to get a good dip lacquer finish - I'm ignorant of how to do it properly, but, not stupid.

Neither of the 2 online dictionaries I looked at says anything about stupid under the word ignorant.

Dictionary.com
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Merriam-Webster.com

1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2 : unaware, uninformed

— ig·no·rant·ly adverb

— ig·no·rant·ness noun

synonyms ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, untutored, unlearned mean not having knowledge. ignorant may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an ignorant fool> <ignorant of nuclear physics>. illiterate applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still illiterate>. unlettered implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the unlettered>. untutored may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an untutored people>. unlearned suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the unlearned masses>.
 
Last edited:
Stevej72 said:
I'm ignorant of the post to which you refer. But, the word ignorant does not imply stupidity, unless you are ignorant of the meaning of the word. Neither of which makes us stupid.

I can't seem to get a good dip lacquer finish - I'm ignorant of how to do it properly, but, not stupid.

Neither of the 2 online dictionaries I looked at says anything about stupid under the word ignorant.

Dictionary.com
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

Merriam-Webster.com

1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2 : unaware, uninformed

— ig·no·rant·ly adverb

— ig·no·rant·ness noun

synonyms ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, untutored, unlearned mean not having knowledge. ignorant may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an ignorant fool> <ignorant of nuclear physics>. illiterate applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still illiterate>. unlettered implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the unlettered>. untutored may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an untutored people>. unlearned suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the unlearned masses>.
Click to expand...
I'd pay good money, wear a suit and tie to hear you recite that on a stage. :laugh:
 
greenmtnguy said:
"The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation."
In the case of a recent thread that disintegrated rather quickly, semantics comes into play. Rather than call someone ignorant which implies stupidity, unaware means you do not have the facts, but shows respect. I have a friend that would not allow politics or religion to be discussed in his house. Why? They are too personal and to attack the thought meant attacking the person. Close friends in a direct conversation where inflection and facial expressions show emotion would defuse conversations to turn into a dogfight on forums. I could have a heated discussion with someone who shows respect and choose not to agree, but the respect would still be there, hopefully both ways.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna put my two cents in here. Alton, I agree with you. And I also understand Steve's comment. My cousin and I grew up far apart. Now we live in the same house. Her dad was a laywer and mine was a landscape contractor. We were able to "play" on words from our differering backgrounds for years!

Now that I'm having "recall problems" with my brain functioning, our word games are rare. But our word confusion and angst has become more often. After taking time to cool off, it takes us a half an hour to talk it out and realize that (i.e.) when she said I was ignorant, she didn't mean I was stupid. Those two words just happened to come up for discussion lately.

Different occupations, different parts of the country, not everyone looks at a dictionary to understand what another says. The first thing we do is "draw from our training." That COULD BE why greenmtnguy started his comment with "Semantics" - using the definition from Wikepedia: Online encyclopedia..

And yeah, I agree.
 
Being that Alton is a friend of mine, I was going to pick on him about this thread. I won't. I agree with what he is saying
However, I would like to comment on SteveJ72 rebuttal. And Steve, I do agree that those of us who actually use words as they are meant, would not take it as an insult. And I am NOT trying to insult you either, so please do not take it as such.

There are words that have a literal, defined meaning, but the street version of those words can connote something else.
Ignorant happens to be one of those words, and the usual street meaning is as a synonym for stupid.
Unfortunately for many of us, street language has taken a greater hold on some words, without little thought going into the actual meaning of the word as defined originally.

Once again, I understand your answer Steve, but I think Alton was absolutely correct in the original point he was trying to make.
Jerry

p.s. If anyone ever brings up that I agreed with Alton, I will send Neil after them (haha)

pps. Hopefully Neil is feeling better

One last note, as Alton and few others might be aware, there was quite a bit of tension in the local area due to someones ignorance.
Later found that the person was not being truthful in their representation of themself, but that is a different story, and that person has left the group permanently.
So on this one, I can speak from first hand experience
 
Last edited:
Being one of those that used the word ignorant in the aformentioned I did not mean it as stupid.

I have found that when speaking on the internet you have to be quite literal as there is no sure fire way to imply any meaning other than the literal meaning.

I did like a previous comment about a monitor where a big Iron Mike Tyson glove comes out and knocks some people upside the head. I know that I could use a good whack a time or two myself to say "It's the internet stupid!"
 
I would like to add quite a bit of twist to this issue. I will also use the word Ignorant in my example since it seems to be the word of choice for this conversation.
I do not see it as an excuse that the written word can be the cause of offense. As would be the case due to the absence of facial expression and inflection of the spoken word. I do Agree that this could be a cause for initial misunderstanding but not an ongoing lingering offense. Here is why.
I have no control over how someone reacts to my comments. That is purely there choice. I do not control them or their choices. I do control my ability to recognize there reaction and act accordingly.
First of all someone becoming offended by my comment is evidence that they think I had intent to be offensive. I have one of two choices here. either correct their thinking of me or defend my comment. In the event I defend it it is further evidence that I did intend to offend and will stand for my right to do so. correcting the misunderstanding is evidence that I may never have intended to be offensive in the first place.
Rather than recognize this I see most people attempt to control the other person or tell them how they should have been or should be in the future. what or how someone else is is non of my business.

In truth Ignorant means lacking knowledge of something. even to the point you do not realize it even exists. Such as all of you are ignorant of the situation I live in at home. I am not responsible for your understanding of the language used. I am responsible for correcting any misunderstanding of those words whenever possible. does this mean I have the ability to fix any mislead thinking. not at all. often others are determined to hold on to their hurt feelings. at that point I simply let them have their discontent and move on.
I have often sen people here try to explain misunderstanding about what was said only to see the offended person respond with something like "Oh yeah, now that is what you have to say. But that is not what you where saying before". This is arrogance at it's supreme. yep I know that is another offensive word, it has a meaning and I know what it is, and I meant to use it. Arrogance that they could think they know better than the speaker what they meant to say and not even consider they might have been wrong. sort of like "I think therefore it is"
I think the best thing that could happen to mankind is for us all to realize what idiots we really are and quit trying to look so smart. If everyone took half as much responsibility for our own actions as we try to take of others most of the arguments would never happen. It is just so much easier to tell everyone else how to live than to try and do it ourselves.
 
Charlie, I sincerely apologize. I realize that my use of "The" in the context in which I use it could be offensive. I assure that is not at all my intent. Please forgive me.
 
I should know better than to do this...but here is a thought.
In language there are "purr" words and "snarl" words. The catch is what is a purr word to one is a snarl word to another. Let me use an example from my own discipline. To a mature Christian believer "spiritual" is a purr word denoting maturity, etc. To a rebellious teenager "spiritual" is a snarl word denoting "Miss Goody Two Shoes" or "hypocrite." Even with that reality I have noticed on this site that at times obvious snarl words are chosen when a more obvious purr word would have worked better. Even though such a deliberate thoughtful choice is not always a guarantee that the chosen word will be taken as it was intended it might aid communication. Most of us could choose "softer" words if we were intentional in our efforts to communicate without offending. I think that might be what the first post in this thread was saying.

Some folks seem to be more intent on "tellin um" than communicating with them. And...just for the record, I did not read the previous thread that has been referenced. My comments are based on about four years of observation and reading threads as a part of this great forum.
 
While much has been written about the importance of us choosing our words carefully to avoid misunderstandings of our meaning (all of which I agree with) we have an equal responsibility to make sure we are correctly interpreting what was written. I know for myself there has been a few times that I have read someones response to one of my posts and took offense and was ready to fire off an angry response. Fortunately I decided to wait and think about their post so that I could devise a sufficiently acidic reply, and as I reread the post I began to see that they were not in fact attacking me but had simply made a poor choice of words. I think it behooves all of us when we feel our tempers rise from a post to take time and reread the post with the assumption that the writer is not trying to attack me and see if that gives the post a different interpretation.
 
Well said.

dalemcginnis said:
While much has been written about the importance of us choosing our words carefully to avoid misunderstandings of our meaning (all of which I agree with) we have an equal responsibility to make sure we are correctly interpreting what was written. I know for myself there has been a few times that I have read someones response to one of my posts and took offense and was ready to fire off an angry response. Fortunately I decided to wait and think about their post so that I could devise a sufficiently acidic reply, and as I reread the post I began to see that they were not in fact attacking me but had simply made a poor choice of words. I think it behooves all of us when we feel our tempers rise from a post to take time and reread the post with the assumption that the writer is not trying to attack me and see if that gives the post a different interpretation.
Click to expand...
 
I think due care needs to be taken when we share with others, there are certain factors that can't be conveyed without very careful choice of words.
Firstly, if you think someone is deliberately putting you down- a quick pm to ask was that the intention or was it "tongue in cheek".
Secondly, if someone really "cheeses you off"- maybe a PM to explain that to the person-they may not realize it-!
Once the PM business is taken care of, usually you will find the majority apologize and explain themselves and become good friends.
Unfortunately, sometimes it becomes a free for all, everybody shooting off at the mouth, saying things that are later regretted- the moderator can usually step in and moderate!
Many factors go into our words, but on a written forum you cannot see or hear the inuendos that moderate what we are saying; also familiarity with the person(s) involved will also affect our understanding of what is being said, an off the cuff remark by someone you know well will make you smile-while someone else may get offended.
I think I have said my two bobs worth, Amos
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom