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stonepecker

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I was in Walmart this weekend and seen a cookie jar. 2 gallon size......just $10. It stands 10.5" tall and 8" across.
So it might be a cookie jar after I get an answer here. Just how thick does the glass need to be for stablizing? I am concerned here that It may just crack and implode with a vacuum.

Also, why would it not work to have the blanks 'soak' in the juice longer at a lower pressure? Wouldn't the blanks keep taking in juice till the vacuum is released?

Thanks for any help.
 
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I seen that posting Glen.
That is a candy jar.......looks much thicker then the cookie jar I got.

I am thinking more of using this as a chamber with say two quart jars inside. Dye-ing two colors at the same time.
Also, just wanting to see if thee are others who have tried longer times with lower pressure/vacuum and what their success would be.
 
Vacuuming a blank at a lower pressure will not take all of the air out. You need as closer to true vac. as you can get. At a lower vacuum, even for a longer period of time still will not take out all the air. JMHO. I would hope Curtis will post as he is the expert on stabilizing.
Tim.
 
At pet smart I purchased 1 10" tall by 6" diameter terrarium. The glass is about 3/16" thick.


I believe in that case the curvature of the tank will actually strengthen the glass. I used a 1/2" thick piece of acrylic and some buna rubber for the gasket. it holds 20 inches of pressure using a HF vacuum generator not a pump.

I just purchased a pump to get it to the 28" or so. I don't see any issues at all.

The Tank was $12.00

Have about $40.00 in tank and the pump just cost me $62.00
 
I have been working with Curtis some and Tim is correct the closer to 29" you can get the better you are at the 22" I was at I would be getting 74% of the air out of the blankets 28" get's you somewhere around 95% of the air out of the blank.
 
Keep in mind...As has been talked about in many other posts, that your vacuum will vary based on altitude. You can't pull more vacuum than is available in positive pressure. Less isn't better....it's just less. The pressure changing to positive when the vacuum is released is what draws the liquid in to the blank.
 
Jim is very much correct. At sea level 29.92 inches is the theoretical best. But in Denver is is in the area of 25 inches.

Speaking of Denver I just talked with my daughter who is an engineer with Lockheed Space systems and was referred to a web site here is a qoute from one of there discussions.

"The normal reason for using spherical pressure vessels is that they are exceedingly good at resisting the pressure difference, by means of the hoop stresses running round the skin. A good compromise is a cylinder - hence the shape of submarines"

She is doing some calculations for me "but I feel fairly safe with the 3/16" thickness of the glass cylinder I am using.
 
I was in Walmart this weekend and seen a cookie jar. 2 gallon size......just $10. It stands 10.5" tall and 8" across.
So it might be a cookie jar after I get an answer here. Just how thick does the glass need to be for stablizing? I am concerned here that It may just crack and implode with a vacuum.
It might. I'd try it out without stabilizing goo and tape the bottle.

Also, why would it not work to have the blanks 'soak' in the juice longer at a lower pressure? Wouldn't the blanks keep taking in juice till the vacuum is released?

Thanks for any help.
As I understand it (and someone will certainly correct me), the stabilizing goo doesn't really enter the blanks much until you release the vacuum. Therefore, you want to pull a vacuum until it stops bubbling, release the vacuum and then do it again.
 
Last night I heard back from my daughter, she did confirm my thoughts. A cylindrical chamber would be stronger then rectangular ones.
 
Last night I heard back from my daughter, she did confirm my thoughts. A cylindrical chamber would be stronger then rectangular ones.

John,

My personal preference is a square chamber. I've had 3 different tube type chambers, and for every day stabilizing, I'm not a fan. It's difficult to fill all of the voids in the chamber and you end up using much more resin than necessary. This is especially true when dying with color. If you only want to stabilize a couple blanks, it requires a lot of resin to fill the tube.

again, just my opinion...., but something to consider.
 
Perhaps a stupid question...but I was under the impression that the cactus juice could be poured out and reused, so does it really matter how much you put in the chamber?
 
Perhaps a stupid question...but I was under the impression that the cactus juice could be poured out and reused, so does it really matter how much you put in the chamber?

Yes, but if you are dying blanks it does make a difference. If I need to dye 10 blanks red, I end up using twice the CJ to cover the blanks that are upright in a tube vs. if they were laying flat.

There is also the issue of pouring "dirty" CJ back into a bottle of clean CJ. If you use punky wood, this becomes a problem. Maybe it's just personal preference and doesn't really matter in the end.

Again, This is my preference....it may not matter to you.
 
Disclaimer! I don't stabilize, I've never put a Wal-Mart cookie jar under vacuum, and I'm not a materials scientist. However, I know enough about stress concentrations and crack propagation to be dangerous, and I caution anyone considering glass chambers to reconsider the idea, or at the very least take adequate safety precautions.

Regardless of the thickness of the glass, there are numerous potential failure modes for these containers. From cracks propagating from an imperfection, to bumping it with your watch while it's under vacuum, to vibration as you push it across your bench, the possibility of catastrophic failure is significant.

Similar to metals, glass is also subject to fatigue failures, meaning that the repeated application of stress can weaken glass, causing it to fail at stress levels way below what what a new piece of glass can withstand. These jars could work fine for a long time, then fail without warning.

I know, in the other thread on the subject, Steve points out that he's made a dozen chambers with candy jars and hasn't had any issues. That's great, but it doesn't mean it's a safe thing to do. It could mean that his chambers don't have any inclusions which might start a crack, or that they have not cycled enough times to fail from fatigue, or maybe they really are robust enough to tolerate this kind of service.

So, my advice is to avoid any material or vessel which is not rated for the vacuum you want to use. If you insist on doing this, please wear safety gear or use some sort of containment, such as putting the jar into a 5 gallon bucket prior to pulling a vacuum.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but if it saves even one person from getting juice or blood all over the shop, it'll be worth the eye rolling you might be doing after reading this post. :rolleyes:
 
Jim is very much correct. At sea level 29.92 inches is the theoretical best. But in Denver is is in the area of 25 inches.

Speaking of Denver I just talked with my daughter who is an engineer with Lockheed Space systems and was referred to a web site here is a qoute from one of there discussions.

"The normal reason for using spherical pressure vessels is that they are exceedingly good at resisting the pressure difference, by means of the hoop stresses running round the skin. A good compromise is a cylinder - hence the shape of submarines"

She is doing some calculations for me "but I feel fairly safe with the 3/16" thickness of the glass cylinder I am using.

I've never met a Lockheed engineer I didn't have great respect for, and I have known a fair number! She'll probably point out to you that an imperfection in the manufacturing process which puts, say a small, probably unnoticeable flat spot on the cylinder will, instead of pure hoop stress, induce a much higher bending stress in that spot.

Calculations are great, but they're usually done considering true shapes. I've never taken any measuring equipment into the housewares section at Target, but I'd bet you wouldn't find one close to true shape.
 
If this chamber did fail, I would hesitate to call it a catastrophic event. I'm not casting here at 65lbs+.....big difference. A vac chamber only needs to withstand normal air pressure (14.7 psi at sea level). Conversely, a pressure chamber has to be built to withstand several times normal air pressure, which can make them very dangerous if constructed improperly. There is no explosive quality to a vac chamber failure. The instant a failure occurs, the vacuum is no longer as strong as before the failure, so the failure can not become larger. The exact opposite is true of a pressure chamber.

Glass canning jars are rated for full vacuum. I call this a candy jar, but it's constructed exactly like a canning jar. I really do not know if it's purpose is for candy, cookies, sugar, etc.....but it's rim is flattened like many made to accept a rubber seal in order to hold a vacuum seal. I did not say that I've made 12 of these.....this is actually my 1st in glass. The rest are acrylic with mechanical joints, similar to Curtis's old model. I'm MUCH more comfortable using my new chamber than one of the old ones......

All if this being said, I still follow best practices for safety. I wouldn't put my face in feont of it and glare at the magic of burl being infused with CJ.......but yet we will place our hands and fingers fractions of an inch from a headstock turning at 4,000 RPM. Just be careful and use good common sense. I've stabilized enough to feel comfortable with it and I really do not see this as an issue.


Disclaimer! I don't stabilize, I've never put a Wal-Mart cookie jar under vacuum, and I'm not a materials scientist. However, I know enough about stress concentrations and crack propagation to be dangerous, and I caution anyone considering glass chambers to reconsider the idea, or at the very least take adequate safety precautions.

Regardless of the thickness of the glass, there are numerous potential failure modes for these containers. From cracks propagating from an imperfection, to bumping it with your watch while it's under vacuum, to vibration as you push it across your bench, the possibility of catastrophic failure is significant.

Similar to metals, glass is also subject to fatigue failures, meaning that the repeated application of stress can weaken glass, causing it to fail at stress levels way below what what a new piece of glass can withstand. These jars could work fine for a long time, then fail without warning.

I know, in the other thread on the subject, Steve points out that he's made a dozen chambers with candy jars and hasn't had any issues. That's great, but it doesn't mean it's a safe thing to do. It could mean that his chambers don't have any inclusions which might start a crack, or that they have not cycled enough times to fail from fatigue, or maybe they really are robust enough to tolerate this kind of service.

So, my advice is to avoid any material or vessel which is not rated for the vacuum you want to use. If you insist on doing this, please wear safety gear or use some sort of containment, such as putting the jar into a 5 gallon bucket prior to pulling a vacuum.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but if it saves even one person from getting juice or blood all over the shop, it'll be worth the eye rolling you might be doing after reading this post. :rolleyes:
 
I am very happy with the amount of information we have here in the IAP. The people here are a fountain of knowledge that we all should listen to.

With that being said, The 'cookie jar' is going to stay a 'cookie jar'. I like cookies even if the doctor says to stay away from the baked goods. I listen to him because he is the expert in his field........just like I am an expert in mine.

Thank you to everyone for sharing the knowledge you have.
 
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I'm wondering what the difference is between this method and the pickle jar method.....used by many, and even published in the library. Heck, I tried it after a suggestion by Curtis. Pickles are healthier.....:)
 
Jeff appreciate your comments and concerns for the safety of all.

I only mentioned my choice as just that my choice and sharing it for people to think about. It is up to them to make up their mind as to what they feel is right for them. Like Steve mentioned these are vacuum chambers I personally don't think a failure would be that violent as to cause a catastrophic event. I maybe wrong if so some one please share.

A LOT OF COMMON SENSE Needs to go into no matter what you do in your shop from sanding, turning, using all types of equipment one needs to wear safety glass and other protective clothing if needed.

Also just like your lathe, everyone needs to inspect all your equip for defects and things that need to be replaced or repaired.

I have read and heard stories from local turners that you wonder how they are still alive. I even have made a couple dumb errors by getting complacent that but only for the grace of God could have been worse. But hopefully I have learned from my error's.

And no I didn't get the idea from the pickle jar article in the library. If one is concerned maybe that needs to be pulled if not already done so.
 
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A second thought do you know the Lockheed engineer that was on America's Got Talent. The guy that trains pigs.
 
Just to add a comment expressing dislike for circular or cylindrical shaped vessels. The complaint being the difficulty loading efficiently, and the need to use large amounts of "juice" filling all the unused volume. (This is significant mostly when using dyes: you need to mix a large batch of dye/juice for each color desired). A good solution is to set a rectangular shaped vessel, suitably sized for efficient loading, inside the vacuum chamber. Be sure to allow "head room" for foaming. The inner vessel can be of any suitable material, as it is not exposed to any differential pressure (or in this case vacuum). Efficient color work awaits!
 
Steve that is a great idea, it could be a thin walled plastic container.

I personally am just getting started to work with the stabilization of pen blanks. I am also venturing off in to casting with PR & Alumilite. Which is a different process all together. But at this time the purchase of a medium size rectangular tank and all the extras plus the juice & dye's (dye's may wait). Plus the building of a pressure pot and all it's stuff. Was a little bit much for my budget director. So with keeping safety in mind I opted to build a chamber. At first I was looking at building a rectangular one but by time you purchase the 1/2" acrylic, I might as well have purchased one.

Now I do plan on saving and re-using the juice. Even if I dye some I will just store left overs in a separate container At almost $90 a gallon my Budget Director would throw a fit if I didn't
 
A small issue perhaps.

If this chamber did fail........ There is no explosive quality to a vac chamber failure....... I really do not see this as an issue.

While not as violent as an explosion from a pressure tank there is a very real danger from flying glass. The air rushing into the void, carries the glass with it, some of which "bounces" back out until everything settles. I'm not saying don't use glass but be aware that there is some degree of hazard to be aware of.

Huge Console TV Implosion - YouTube


Aussie50's Exploding Tv. - YouTube
 
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Well one would be foolish to think there is no danger. But not on the level of an exploding steel pressure pot.

I do believe that if I use common sense safety procedures, and inspect the glass vessel before each use if warranted I think the risk will be at a minimum.
 
Tape the glass and you will greatly limit it's flying about.
clear-packing-tape.jpg
 
Last night I heard back from my daughter, she did confirm my thoughts. A cylindrical chamber would be stronger then rectangular ones.

John,

My personal preference is a square chamber. I've had 3 different tube type chambers, and for every day stabilizing, I'm not a fan. It's difficult to fill all of the voids in the chamber and you end up using much more resin than necessary. This is especially true when dying with color. If you only want to stabilize a couple blanks, it requires a lot of resin to fill the tube.

again, just my opinion...., but something to consider.


Couldn't you just put a square container commensurate to the number of blanks in the tube chamber? That might save you on the juice.

Just a thought.
 
Steve & Kelly,

That's a great suggestion. For as much stabilizing as I've done, that never occurred to me. Will definately prevent me from making 30 purple curly maple blanks when I only need 10:tongue:

Sorry to the OP for hijacking....I'm still sticking to my candy jar, cookie jar, sugar bowl, change holder stabilizing chamber and will recommend it to anyone:biggrin:.....placing it in a bucket is a good idea "just in case"
 
There was a previous member here that bought a candy jar from Hob$y Lob$y and used it as a Vac Chamber and it went to pieces. I wouldn't want to even chance that. Just my 3 cents worth.

Ray
 
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