Pen Mill Pilots

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Daniel

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has anyone else noticed that there are only 4 pen mill pilots although there are over 35 different sizes of tubes used in pen kits?

When I first started turning pens, way back in the dark ages. those 4 pilots where pretty close to a full set. the big fat pen was a cigar and it uses a 3/8 inch tube.

as pen kit design evolved somehow the pen mill became the forgotten step child.

although we have managed to figure out ways to cope with that. I originally bought my mini metal lathe with the idea that I could make my own bushings and my own pilots. I learned in short order that making the pilots takes a long time adn that it was not something I could do and offer to other turners.

I did end up with this nifty little list though. that took a lot of effort to make by the way, of every pilot needed to fit any tube size for any pen kit. and I held onto it always wanting to do something about it.

well that chance may have arrived.
in a nut shell we now have 4 pilots available when what we need is 24.
keeping 4 sorted out as to size by eyeballing them is one thing, but 24 would start to be a problem so they need to be marked for the size of tube they are for.

and they need to be cheap. at the current going rate for pilots $14.99 to $19.99 a full set if even available would be about $400.00.

anyone got any thoughts on this, cause I am on the edge of being able to make it happen. the only thing still in question is price. and I hope to have an answer on that in the next day or two.
 
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I bought a pack of 10" long 7mm tubes and cut them into 2 1/2" lengths. they are in a box with all the pilot bushings I have made so far. whenever I need a new bushing I grab a piece of corian glue in a tube, turn it, mark it with the size and pen kit and put it in the box with the rest of them. Total investment so far less than $10. Daniel I really commend you for all the effort you are putting into making things better but in this case I don't see the return.
 
I make all my sleeves out of Delrin with a letter "D" hole. I also commend your efforts Daniel but sleeves are so easy to make that I also don't see a market for the pilots. I COULD be way off base though!:wink:
 
Well, I haven't noticed I need 24. I have the full set from CSUSA, which gives me 10 for $165, which, admittedly, wasn't cheap. But I have yet to make a kit that I couldn't use one of them for, and I've tried most kits at one time or another. These have a different size stem than the set of four you're talking about (I also have those if I haven't given them away).

If I did need something odd it would take about a buck's worth of a plastic blank (or a delrin rod if I wanted to go all out) and about 20 minutes worth of drill press and lathe work to make a permanent sleeve. Of course, if you can beat $1 plus a tiny bit of labor I'll buy a set from you.

Of course, I also have my disk sander set up to be perfectly square as well. I admit that took a 39.95 widget to get just right, but I use for more than pen setup.
 
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I'd love a few more sizes, but 24 is way overkill. For example, some pilots are slightly smaller than they need to be, but another tube conveniently fits over the trimmer shaft and fits perfectly into the tube you are trying to ream out.

For those that get glue in the tubes, new cutters the correct size would be great.
 
Yah I like Delrin also---bought the rod off Flea-bay for a couple bucks and have a life time supply---you know there is always going to be a new kit and size.
 
Just made a spacer [bushing] this morning for the Wall Street II. Used an old blank I'd turned a couple of years ago. Only had one end--the other end had blown up. Just turn it down, make it slick & always works as good as anything. Somewhere I had made one for the Wall Street III but it walked away. When I'm done I put the pen bushings & the home made one in the package the kit came in. That way I'll know what they are for. I don't think the thing needs a tube if you drill with a 1/4" bit. Or drill with the 7mm & stick a tube in it loose.
Daniel, I myself don't think I'd invest in something like this, but hope you can come up with an idea that can bring you in a few extra bucks.
 
I know that CSUSA sells other sizes of pilots, which contradicts the info I am getting here about the need for them. of course offering does not mean selling them either.

here is what I see in the CSUSA set
they offer 7mm, 8mm, 3/8 and 10mm that can be gotten as a set anywhere.
they then have O, S, 27/64, 37/64, 15/32, 25/64.

all the pilots I have from 4 different sources now are only accurate to within 1/100 of an inch. on average the pilot needs to be 0.035inches smaller than the bit you drilled the hole with +-0.005 5/1000

the 8mm drill bit and the O drill bit are only 1/1000 different in size. but CSUSA sell seperate pilots for both bits.
ther is a difference of 3/1000 in the 10mm and 25/64 but CSUSA will sell seperate pilots for those also.

the other 4 are actually differnt size bits, but even if they did have a pilot made to fit those specific bits they where not needed.

my list covers 36 bits with 24 pilots, 4 of which most people get by buying a set.
leaving 20, CSUSA has 4 of those covered.
 
since I've had problems with the cutterhead portion of the kits, I've abandoned them altogether. I now drill the hole, tune the blank round between centers using the hole to center it. Glue in the tubes and I then put it in a self-centering chuck to trim the ends with a skew. (I've actually started making them slightly concave which helps a lot with the fit and finish I've found). On some balnks I use sandpaper attached to a card scrapper. The results I get now are nearly perfect and I see no reason to change it. I prepped 30 blanks to the point of ready to profile turn in about 2 hours last weekend. So less than 5 minutes each to cut, drill, round, glue and trim.

Then again, I bought a 115 bit set of bits for $40 that works fie for me too.
 
Just because they have them does not mean any one here buys them.

I purchased all the sizes that CSUSA offers and in some cases I have two or three of the same size and when I need that particular size it's real convenient to grab it and go. Some sizes you can get by with adding a brass tube over the pilot to make it fit on a tube that they don't offer. I like the convenience of not having to remove the pilot shaft from the cutter so I have multiple sets just so I can keep the particular size shaft and cutter with the different kits I keep.
 
Heck the one I REALLY like is the carbide head that Noland sells-----put's that China junk to shame.
Mike I agree about the 115 drill bits also---I am Enco's mailing list and they have sets of bits 1/2 price all the time.
 
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OK, I guess that those of us who bought them don't exist.

But this all gives me an idea. You provide your list of sizes (include both an O and an 8mm). Then we will find someone who can turn out sleeves for use with a 7mm pilot and Noland's carbide mills. I'll bet people would line up for that kind of deal.

I know that CSUSA sells other sizes of pilots, which contradicts the info I am getting here about the need for them. of course offering does not mean selling them either.
 
Gary, Do you realize Nolan would not be offering carbide cutter heads if he did not have the "China Junk" to add carbide tips to? I know that I have a cutter head from P.S.I, one from CSUSA, and several from Rizheng. and there is a huge difference. I will not buy another one from P.S.I. as that one would not stay sharp of I was milling a wet stone with it. The CSUSA one holds an edge about as well as I would expect one to being good for a few dozen uses at least. I have not ben able to use the Rizheng ones enough to know about them yet. Carbide is expected to have three times the life of HSS. so how carbide tipped mills will wear in comparison is yet to be seen also. I think that people would tend to go to the effort of sharpening them over the steel ones though. I have had lots of comments about how people are simply throwing away the Rizheng ones because they are so cheap they just replace them.
 
Marc, for any given bit takes it's diameter and subtract 0.035 that is the optimum diameter of the pilot for the tube. this also leaves 5/1000 wiggle room and so the pilot is loose enough to slip into the hole with no binding. the best way I have thought of to come up with material that would be consistently accurate was to make them from drill rod, which is made to within 1/1000.
I though about trying to make them that way but turning the shank down to a quarter inch on a rod that is well over half inch in diameter takes a ton of time on a little metal lathe. I also thought of just drilling the end of a drill rod to press fit a dowel pin. problem is a 0.25 inch dowel pin is really 0.25 and I need it to be a little shy for a slip fit with the head. I am still waiting on a quote to have them made. I don't know what to expect from that. I do know that min orders would be along the lines of the pen mill buys (all combined) again with the have to do this colossus buy.
 
Your numbers are based on observation, not standards. Left on my own, I would probably want varying degrees of snugness, now that I think of it. Several of my processes would be different (and easier) if I could safely assemble and disassemble some of the larger pen kits with going through stress.

Another thing not quite on subject. If you started this thread, not for 'casual conversation' but as an early sales pitch I think the thread might belong somewhere else. Perhaps 'group purchases,' although you've made it clear in the past few efforts that you do include a definite markup. Well, I'm a newbie, so I probably have the wrong of it.

Marc


Marc, for any given bit takes it's diameter and subtract 0.035 that is the optimum diameter of the pilot for the tube. this also leaves 5/1000 wiggle room and so the pilot is loose enough to slip into the hole with no binding. the best way I have thought of to come up with material that would be consistently accurate was to make them from drill rod, which is made to within 1/1000.
I though about trying to make them that way but turning the shank down to a quarter inch on a rod that is well over half inch in diameter takes a ton of time on a little metal lathe. I also thought of just drilling the end of a drill rod to press fit a dowel pin. problem is a 0.25 inch dowel pin is really 0.25 and I need it to be a little shy for a slip fit with the head. I am still waiting on a quote to have them made. I don't know what to expect from that. I do know that min orders would be along the lines of the pen mill buys (all combined) again with the have to do this colossus buy.
 
Marc, the truth is I am about $250.00 in the hole on buys I have done just this year. $150 on the walnut burl and $100 on these drill bits, another $30 for getting samples of another tool, and a list of other smaller cost here and there. I sold the stands and offered the walnut blanks just to get the cost of the samples back but didn't quite make it.
 
I have gone over this list several times, and I like this one the best. I have had them arrange with wider tolerances that required fewer pilots in all. I started narrowing down just how much "Slop" was starting to become to much by actually making pilots and checking them for fit. I do not have the tube sizes to test every one of these but would like to if anyone knows where they can be gotten without buying all the kits themselves. this list would also replace any pilots CSUSA sells or pilots you can get with the set. so for the sake of refining just what pilots are needed at all. here is my latest list.

0.237 I bit
0.243 7mm, J, 9/32 (common 7mm pilot)
0.255 L
0.284 8mm, O, 8.2mm (Common 8mm pilot)
0.293 21/64
0.311 11/32, S (offered by CSUSA)
0.324 T, 23/64
0.333 U
0.341 3/8, V (common 3/8 pilot)
0.359 25/64, 10mm, X (common 10mm pilot)
0.371 13/32
0.378 Z, 10.5mm
0.387 27/64 (offered by CSUSA)
0.401 11mm, 7/16
0.434 15/32 (offered by CSUSA)
0.449 31/64
0.457 12.5mm
0.465 1/2
0.481 33/64
0.489 13.3mm
0.496 17/32
0.514 35/64, 14mm
0.543 37/64 (offered by CSUSA)
0.561 19/32

Part of the reason I bring up these topics is that in the past group buys determined if a product was needed or even wanted by whether they where successful in collecting orders. soon that will no longer be true. At least for my part I will be deciding, and this is one way I try to guide my decisions. not to try and sneak any free advertising by anyone as has been suggested.
 
You mean that despite all of those precautions you still only broke even? But if you want to look at it that way I'm about $10,000 out of pocket on wood and $5,000 on tools. And I've had pretty decent sales this year. And I don't want to even think about next year when I go for a new lathe (Robust) and a new 18" bandsaw (Laguna). Which is why I'm all for making my own pilots. I already have too much invested in pens. I have 20lbs of thuya burl waiting to become a bowl or 2 or 3 and I'm procrastinating making pens. Grrr!

Marc, the truth is I am about $250.00 in the hole on buys I have done just this year. $150 on the walnut burl and $100 on these drill bits, another $30 for getting samples of another tool, and a list of other smaller cost here and there. I sold the stands and offered the walnut blanks just to get the cost of the samples back but didn't quite make it.
 
I've turned sleeves to fit the standard pilots and I have turned complete aluminum pilots. Don't see a need for another box of something setting around taking up space. Oh, an I use these with the PSI pilots I originally start turning pend with 4 years this fall. They still trim well!
 
In my view, the original post in this thread was basically market research which Jeff has specifically prohibited. Therefore, I am locking this thread and if anyone has any comments about this, send me a PM.
 
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