Not "sterling" silver [rant]

[Parson]

I'm really fed up with the fact that numerous pen kit vendors are falsely advertising pen kits (barons, sedonas, navigators, etc.) as being "sterling" silver. There's no stamp on the pieces proving it and we all know it's silver plated and plated very thinly at that!

 

[Russianwolf]

No vendor has every implied that the kits were solid Sterling, all that offer them state in their "plating list" that they are plated with a 20 micron layer of Sterling (same as most plated silverware). Anytime that something is plated, it can not be stamped.

The only place I know of to get solid sterling kit pieces is MRedburn at www.silverpenparts.com

 

[Parson]

Sterling = at least 92.7% silver by weight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_silver

So when someone advertises a pen kit is "sterling silver" they are implying it is at least 92.7% silver due to the use of the word sterling ... which I consider deceptive advertising. It should be advertised as "silver plated." These vendors are not ignorant of this and should change it.

silverparts.com is a great example of solid, sterling silver pen pieces for sale at what one would expect them to cost. Thanks for adding it to this thread. It will clearly show other readers of this thread what I'm ranting about.

 

[Russianwolf]

actually, Sterling is pretty specific about the ratio of silver to copper and other metal. .999 is more than .925 but is termed "fine Silver".

But what about the Titanium pens, Copper pens, 24kt gold pens, 10kt gold pens, etc. They are all plated and to be 24kt, it must have .999 pure gold.

My point is, they plating info in right in the plating list including the Sterling Silver pens, which are plated with a 20 micron layer of Sterling Silver. So no, they aren't false advertising, you just expected solid sterling for the cost of brass.

http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Berea_Hardwoods_Pen_Kit_Platings.htm here is the only place I'm aware of that is selling Sterling Plated pen kits.

An example of a 10k kits that doesn't mention plating anywhere on the kit page. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Closeout___10k_Gold_Americana_Pencil_Kit___amer_pencil?Args=

 

[Parson]

I do not expect solid silver for the cost of brass. I'm smarter than that, my friend. My rant has nothing to do with false expectations about what I received and everything to do with truth in advertising. I knew I was getting silver plated kits before I bought them.

My wife and I have purchased and sold lots of actual sterling silver and silver plated tableware through the years as antique dealers.

It's my opinion that these vendors should be advertising these kits as silver plated without the use of the word sterling, which means far more than 20 microns of silver over base metal.

 

[Fred]

... An example of a 10k kits that doesn't mention plating anywhere on the kit page. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Closeout___10k_Gold_Americana_Pencil_Kit___amer_pencil?Args=

Mike, Craft Services item description DOES read as follows: "... while providing contrast for plated surfaces."

To my way of reading their ad, we as buyers are clearly advised that they do have 'plated surfaces' available in their profuct line. I see nothing deceptive about this at all.

I am sure that IF any vendor sold a kit or anything else that was SOLID anything, then they surely would point that out in their product descriptions.

 

[lazyguy]

I don't really see a problem with a vendor who is selling a plating of a certian material cannot label it as such as long as it is clear it is indeed a plating. As Mike stated about 24kt gold pens, 10kt gold pens ? 10 & 24 kt implies a refinment level of gold.

 

[aggromere]

It everything is plated, what is black chrome? Is it enamel or something?

 

[DCBluesman]

Why do we want to get wrapped around the axle over this? Since the vendors disclose what the material is, they clearly do not intend to deceive.

In the US, we have a Federal agency whose job it is to define these things. I'm sure most other countries have similar regulating agencies.

From the
Code of Federal Regulations
Title 16: Commercial Practices
PART 23—GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES

<H5>§ 23.6 Misrepresentation as to silver content.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to misrepresent that an industry product contains silver, or to misrepresent an industry product as having a silver content, plating, electroplating, or coating.
(b) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "silver," "solid silver," "Sterling Silver," "Sterling," or the abbreviation "Ster." unless it is at least925 /1,000ths pure silver.
(c) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "coin" or "coin silver" unless it is at least900 /1,000ths pure silver.
(d) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as being plated or coated with silver unless all significant surfaces of the product or part contain a plating or coating of silver that is of substantial thickness.8
8 See footnote 3.
(e) The provisions of this section relating to markings and descriptions of industry products and parts thereof are subject to the applicable tolerances of the National Stamping Act or any amendment thereof.9
9 Under the National Stamping Act, sterling silver articles or parts that contain no solder have a permissible tolerance of four parts per thousand. If the part tested contains solder, the permissible tolerance is ten parts per thousand. For full text, see 15 U.S.C. 294, et seq.
Note 1 to §23.6: The National Stamping Act provides that silverplated articles shall not "be stamped, branded, engraved or imprinted with the word 'sterling' or the word 'coin,' either alone or in conjunction with other words or marks." 15 U.S.C. 297(a).
Note 2 to §23.6: Exemptions recognized in the assay of silver industry products are listed in the appendix.

And as a side note, are any of our pens really handmade? It seems they are not, with very few exceptions. From the same source.

<H5>§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.
Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.
(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.

So argue away, but the rules seem fairly well stated.

 

[soligen]

I think turning on a lathe qualifies for "hand made" however we include parts in a pen that we do not hand make. So, I interpret the above to mean that we cannot call the pen hand made, but perhaps "a custom crafted pen with a hand made pen body". This, of course, provided you dont use a lathe duplicator.

 

[Smitty37]

Hand turned

Why do we want to get wrapped around the axle over this? Since the vendors disclose what the material is, they clearly do not intend to deceive.

In the US, we have a Federal agency whose job it is to define these things. I'm sure most other countries have similar regulating agencies.

From the
Code of Federal Regulations
Title 16: Commercial Practices
PART 23—GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES

<H5>§ 23.6 Misrepresentation as to silver content.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to misrepresent that an industry product contains silver, or to misrepresent an industry product as having a silver content, plating, electroplating, or coating.
(b) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "silver," "solid silver," "Sterling Silver," "Sterling," or the abbreviation "Ster." unless it is at least925 /1,000ths pure silver.
(c) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as "coin" or "coin silver" unless it is at least900 /1,000ths pure silver.
(d) It is unfair or deceptive to mark, describe, or otherwise represent all or part of an industry product as being plated or coated with silver unless all significant surfaces of the product or part contain a plating or coating of silver that is of substantial thickness.8
8 See footnote 3.
(e) The provisions of this section relating to markings and descriptions of industry products and parts thereof are subject to the applicable tolerances of the National Stamping Act or any amendment thereof.9
9 Under the National Stamping Act, sterling silver articles or parts that contain no solder have a permissible tolerance of four parts per thousand. If the part tested contains solder, the permissible tolerance is ten parts per thousand. For full text, see 15 U.S.C. 294, et seq.
Note 1 to §23.6: The National Stamping Act provides that silverplated articles shall not "be stamped, branded, engraved or imprinted with the word 'sterling' or the word 'coin,' either alone or in conjunction with other words or marks." 15 U.S.C. 297(a).
Note 2 to §23.6: Exemptions recognized in the assay of silver industry products are listed in the appendix.

And as a side note, are any of our pens really handmade? It seems they are not, with very few exceptions. From the same source.

<H5>§ 23.3 Misuse of the terms "hand-made," "hand-polished," etc.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-made or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.
Note to paragraph (a): As used herein, "raw materials" include bulk sheet, strip, wire, and similar items that have not been cut, shaped, or formed into jewelry parts, semi-finished parts, or blanks.
(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.

So argue away, but the rules seem fairly well stated.

I don't use the term hand made....I call them hand turned, but I suppose since I use a power lathe that could be deceptive also.

 

[Smitty37]

Silver Plate

Since Stirling silver is more prone to tarnish than most other silver alloys, and most of us have seen enough stirling silver jewelry, I'm not at all sure what advantage one would gain by advertising "Stirling Silver", certainly none with me.

That being said the use "Stirling" does seem to be "protected" although I fail to see why....Stirling Silver flatware is Passe now days because it is too difficult to keep it clean and shining, most of us don't have servants to take care of that any more. I did it one summer during the '50s when I worked as a busboy at a high class resort, it cured me....when it came time to buy "Sunday" flatware I chose silver plate.

 

[bitshird]

And as a side note, Sterling silver, actually is more expensive to buy than fine silver, remember there is a strict process to adding the alloy material to the fine silver to make it sterling, Also there are now Sterling Alloys that don't just use copper as the alloy material they use indium and other exotics to make sterling tarnish and fire scale resistant.

 

[DCBluesman]

Why do we want to get wrapped around the axle over this?

I'm not sure why a discussion would constitute getting wrapped around the
axle .. I think there are valid questions being raised

..especially if sterling is commanding a premium price, as according to (b)
in your post, .925 is the absolute cheapest plating you can legally get away
with and still call it silver

I can agree with you so long as we consider a "rant" against our vendors over their full, if technically incorrect, disclosure to be asking valid questions.

 

[Russianwolf]

... An example of a 10k kits that doesn't mention plating anywhere on the kit page. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Closeout___10k_Gold_Americana_Pencil_Kit___amer_pencil?Args=

Mike, Craft Services item description DOES read as follows: "... while providing contrast for plated surfaces."

To my way of reading their ad, we as buyers are clearly advised that they do have 'plated surfaces' available in their profuct line. I see nothing deceptive about this at all.

I am sure that IF any vendor sold a kit or anything else that was SOLID anything, then they surely would point that out in their product descriptions.

okay, they do mention plating. When Berea (supplier to AZ Sil) had the Sterling kits on their site, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned also. Bill doesn't mention plating anywhere except on the plating page, its just assumed they all are. Looks like Berea has stopped offering them, so I expect they will disappear from Bill's site also when he runs out.

Sterling Silver is .925 Silver and .075 Copper, No Other ratio is Sterling Silver. The Sterling is more expensive in part because the copper makes the metal harder and less likely to bend easily. If you have a Fine silver spoon it is easily malleable compared to Sterling. There are a couple other alloys, Argentium Sterling Silver and one that MRedburn uses that are .925 Silver, some copper and some other metal that helps it resist tarnish as the copper is the component that tarnishes (Fine silver doesn't tarnish very quickly at all and is considered a noble metal like gold).

When something is plated, it is called whatever the metal is that was used to plate it. If 10k gold was used to pate, the it's 10k plated, if Copper was used then it's copper plated, if Sterling Silver was used then it's Sterling Silver Plated. There are techniques that can be used to plate with all the metal alloys. I certainly wouldn't trust ebay anymore than I trust Wikipedia, and we all know how reliable that can be.

 

[Smitty37]

not sterling

And as a side note, Sterling silver, actually is more expensive to buy than fine silver, remember there is a strict process to adding the alloy material to the fine silver to make it sterling, Also there are now Sterling Alloys that don't just use copper as the alloy material they use indium and other exotics to make sterling tarnish and fire scale resistant.

I'm not sure it is sterling if the silver/copper ratio is changed. it would cost more than .90 fine because there is more silver.