Minwax Wood Hardener

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RHunter

Local Chapter Leader
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OK, so I've become almost addicted to reading about casting and stabilizing wood- and I've got a friend who gave me some Hemlock that is brittle and explodes as soon as I hit it with a gouge to turn it round...

HF Pressure Pot may soon be my next project...

In the meantime, I bought some Minwax Wood Hardener to stabilize a couple of blanks.

So I filled 2 Mason Jars of blanks (1 pen per jar) and poured in the Hardener to cover the blanks.

The question I have is- once I soak these blanks for say, a week and remove the blanks to dry- can I reuse the remaining Hardener in the Mason Jars for more blanks?

At $10 a can, this could get MIGHTY expensive- makes the price for the HF Pot and the required mods (Pressure and Vacuum) a bit more "do-able" fiscally.

Thx!

-Doug
 
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Yes.
Just be aware that color may leech out into the hardener, so you might want to start
with lighter woods and move to darker ones.. unless you want to darken the lighter ones.
 
I've experimented with a couple different 'home remedies' for stabilizing, and wood hardener has been the best of what I've tried. Still not like the pros do it, but for certain woods it'll suffice, esp. if while doing a CA finish. Vacuum is a must, tho.
 
For more discussion on wood hardener, and on the tutorial that is linked above, see this:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=44373

If you are going to use Minwax hardener without pressure, cut the blanks in half and drill them with a 6mm or 7mm bit, then put them in the jar. This will speed up and improve the process a whole lot.

Without using pressure, I leave my blanks in the jar for at least a couple of weeks. It does not take them very long to dry -- a few days.

As others have said, yes you can reuse the hardener, and yes it gets darker. If you have sharpie marking on your blanks, it will melt off and darken the hardener even more.
 
Excellent points!

At $10 a can, I'd like to reuse what hardener is left in my Mason Jars. I'm glad to hear I can.

Brian, I found the tutorial you pointed out- after I filled the jars...bad timing- but I do like the technique. Just wondering how to get that much boiling water out to the shop to make it work- I'm awful sure the Mrs. would frown upon heating the Hardener to boiling in her Kitchen... :biggrin:

And I am going the HF PP route- it's on sale in their latest flyer, and I have a 20% coupon! :)

Pressure for Wood Hardener, Vacuum for Poly Blends (Poly/BLO, Poly/Min. Spirits in the PP.

Thx!

-Doug
 
RHunter said:
Excellent points!

At $10 a can, I'd like to reuse what hardener is left in my Mason Jars. I'm glad to hear I can.

Brian, I found the tutorial you pointed out- after I filled the jars...bad timing- but I do like the technique. Just wondering how to get that much boiling water out to the shop to make it work- I'm awful sure the Mrs. would frown upon heating the Hardener to boiling in her Kitchen... :biggrin:

And I am going the HF PP route- it's on sale in their latest flyer, and I have a 20% coupon! :)

Pressure for Wood Hardener, Vacuum for Poly Blends (Poly/BLO, Poly/Min. Spirits in the PP.

Thx!

-Doug
Click to expand...

For heating the water, a little electric water heater will bring water to a boil in 3 or 4 minutes. Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Rival-4071-WN...1_18?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1238080989&sr=1-18
 
GouletPens said:
Right....only pressurize if you have a pot built for the abuse...like the HF pot.
Click to expand...
Ask Jeff (Workingforwood)about how much abuse these can really take.:biggrin: His pot failed for some reason, so be careful. I have had 5 pots running for a while and have never had a failure but once there is a failure, you need to be a bit more careful.
 
Dario said:
Do not use vacuum pump!!! The solvent is very volatile and turns to gas fast which you will vacuum to no end until dried.

You can use the canning technique to create the vacuum w/o using a vacuum pump as shown here...
http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_tutorials_hints_tips3.htm
Click to expand...

Dario, I'm sure I'm misunderstanding your post, but are you saying don't use ANY vacuum, including pulling vacuum in a pressure pot? I've been in the process of doing just that for 2 months on over 300 blanks, and it's worked great. No drying, I've been able to keep using what's left and adding more when I need it, although Charlie hit it on the head, it definitely takes on color. Occasionally I'd toss out a few teaspoons that were left as sludge.

I wonder if you were talking specifically about an electric vacuum pump, but even still, it will only draw so much vacuum in a pot (I think) and don't really see why that would be a problem with Minwax WH.

Anyway, curious to hear more.

Dale
 
RHunter said:
Excellent points!

Just wondering how to get that much boiling water out to the shop to make it work- I'm awful sure the Mrs. would frown upon heating the Hardener to boiling in her Kitchen... :biggrin:


Thx!

-Doug
Click to expand...


Doug,

Just get yourself a pot with water that covers about 3/4 of your jar (you need room to grab the jar to remove it before it gets too hot). Bring it to a good boil in the kitchen (without your jar of hardener and blanks) and then take it to your shop.....it will be plenty hot enough to bring the hardener to a boil.....remember, it boils at about 133 degrees F. Place your prepared jar in the pot with the lid loosely covering the top. You'll start seeing the small bubbles come up real quick.

Good luck and have fun.


Barney
 
spiritwoodturner said:
Dario, I'm sure I'm misunderstanding your post, but are you saying don't use ANY vacuum, including pulling vacuum in a pressure pot? I've been in the process of doing just that for 2 months on over 300 blanks, and it's worked great. No drying, I've been able to keep using what's left and adding more when I need it, although Charlie hit it on the head, it definitely takes on color. Occasionally I'd toss out a few teaspoons that were left as sludge.

I wonder if you were talking specifically about an electric vacuum pump, but even still, it will only draw so much vacuum in a pot (I think) and don't really see why that would be a problem with Minwax WH.
Anyway, curious to hear more.
Dale
Click to expand...

I was once pulling a vacuum with my pump while using Minwax WH and I could not get past 23HG. After about 30 minutes I opened the pot and noticed that the WH had flowed over the glass container and into the bottom of the pot. When I collected all that was left i had lost about 2/3 of the original WH...most of it to evaporation, the fumes in the shop were pretty intense. So what I do now is a use a glass jar big enough to fit in the pot and instead of vacuum I use pressure. I drop the blanks inside the jar then I weigh them down with a 1/2 pnd piece of metal. Then i pour in the WH making sure that the blanks are covered and apply pressure. After several hours I release the pressure (if at this point you open the post and look in the jar you will see the liquid foaming a bit since the blanks will be releasing small air bubbles). After about 30 mins I re-pressurize and let sit for several hours. I do this sequence several times (depending on the density of the wood and thickness/lenght of the blanks) a day over 1/3 days. The advantage for me is that I get pretty much the same penetration then when using vacuum but don't lose most of the WH to evaporation.
 
That's interesting, Eugene. Are you using a vacuum pump (electric) versus the venturi type? Because with my venturi I only pull for about 30-45 seconds, then of course seal the pot closed. Zero evaporation, nowhere for it to go! I also use a large plastic pail that takes up almost the whole pot inside, never had a drop go over the edge, and am just finishing the last batch of over 300 blanks. I actually bought and set up a second pot for just stabilizing blanks, I had so many. Anyway, I'm about done for now, and it's worked great, but I'll take yours and Dario's info to heart.

Steve (Stevers) had mentioned in a post a long time ago that 23 lbs. was absolute vacuum, and you couldn't pull any more. I max out at 23 also with the venturi. Not sure about the absolute vacuum, but there it is.

Good stuff.

Dale
 
spiritwoodturner said:
Dario, I'm sure I'm misunderstanding your post, but are you saying don't use ANY vacuum, including pulling vacuum in a pressure pot? I've been in the process of doing just that for 2 months on over 300 blanks, and it's worked great. No drying, I've been able to keep using what's left and adding more when I need it, although Charlie hit it on the head, it definitely takes on color. Occasionally I'd toss out a few teaspoons that were left as sludge.

I wonder if you were talking specifically about an electric vacuum pump, but even still, it will only draw so much vacuum in a pot (I think) and don't really see why that would be a problem with Minwax WH.

Anyway, curious to hear more.

Dale
Click to expand...

ElMostro said:
I was once pulling a vacuum with my pump while using Minwax WH and I could not get past 23HG. After about 30 minutes I opened the pot and noticed that the WH had flowed over the glass container and into the bottom of the pot. When I collected all that was left i had lost about 2/3 of the original WH...most of it to evaporation, the fumes in the shop were pretty intense. So what I do now is a use a glass jar big enough to fit in the pot and instead of vacuum I use pressure. I drop the blanks inside the jar then I weigh them down with a 1/2 pnd piece of metal. Then i pour in the WH making sure that the blanks are covered and apply pressure. After several hours I release the pressure (if at this point you open the post and look in the jar you will see the liquid foaming a bit since the blanks will be releasing small air bubbles). After about 30 mins I re-pressurize and let sit for several hours. I do this sequence several times (depending on the density of the wood and thickness/lenght of the blanks) a day over 1/3 days. The advantage for me is that I get pretty much the same penetration then when using vacuum but don't lose most of the WH to evaporation.
Click to expand...

Dale,

I think Eugene basically explained my point. While vacuum will definitely work and help, you will cause the liquid to evaporate before you pull a real deep vacuum. I am not sure what liquid they use but I am assuming it is acetone (or something similar) and that is not healthy to inhale.

For me safety is very important...and those vapors (even in open space) can do you harm.
 
I'll have to respectfully disagree here, because I just did finsh up a series of hundreds of blanks. Vapor to me is a very minimal issue because you're pulling vacuum for seconds, not hours. If I was constantly pulling vacuum out of the pot I would smell it, and I have never smelled a bit of odor, and this stuff is strong. That is, until I open the pot, but that's a push with pressure too.

So the next issue is effectiveness. I have a feeling that's a push too, because I purposely put a light maple blank in to a darkened batch of WH and checked to see if it got to the middle. After a few days, I checked, but didn't need to cut the blank in half (I did) to know it worked fine. I don't cover them because I'm doing batches of 40-50 in one shot and that's a whole lot of WH, so I flip them after a few days. Well, with the maple blank, before I flipped it I noticed the top only was soaking wet, in fact a little pool of WH was there. The vacuum had pulled the WH up through the fibres to the top. I cut it in half after drying and it was perfectly uniform throughout, so I found flipping them over was overkill. I still do it, mainly because I'm in no rush and it can't hurt. Again, in my experience the stuff's not going anywhere.

Still not quite sure how in 30 seconds of pulling vacuum this stuff could completely turn to gas and disappear from the pot, but hey, maybe it's the humidity for you guys, I don't know. I have basically NO humidity, but I'm doubting that has anything to do with it.

I have a feeling either way works about the same. Either you push it in or pull it through. But I have had zero instance of smelly fumes in my shop using vacuum, and I'm not the only one who would notice. I have a gas stove with an active pilot, and if the place would have filled with fumes, you all could watch it as it was orbiting Earth! And with Winter just finishing up, my shop's pretty much sealed. No fumes.

The one thing I haven't tried is vacuum followed by pressure, something some say is essential for doing it correctly. As there is no real "science" to any of this, I look at that as just another way. What I've been doing has worked great for me or I would have tried a different way. But I think this is like casting in general. Several ways get you to the finish line.

Has anyone else had issues with fumes while you pull vacuum? If so, how long do you pull? With what? I'd be interested to know. Incidently, there are volumes of posts from old hands that say vacuum should at least be a part of this if not the preferred way. Maybe something more definitive should be done to clear this up, like a side-by-side test or something. I'm fresh out of blanks that need it after doing over 300, or I'd do it.

Dale
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ElMostro said:
So what I do now is a use a glass jar big enough to fit in the pot and instead of vacuum I use pressure. I drop the blanks inside the jar then I weigh them down with a 1/2 pnd piece of metal. Then i pour in the WH making sure that the blanks are covered and apply pressure. After several hours I release the pressure (if at this point you open the post and look in the jar you will see the liquid foaming a bit since the blanks will be releasing small air bubbles). After about 30 mins I re-pressurize and let sit for several hours. I do this sequence several times (depending on the density of the wood and thickness/lenght of the blanks) a day over 1/3 days. The advantage for me is that I get pretty much the same penetration then when using vacuum but don't lose most of the WH to evaporation.
Click to expand...

What psi do you hold your pressure pot with this process?

Thanks
 
The basic physics is that differnent products boil and different temperatures. I think is ti boyles law that relates the boiling temperature to pressure. Most organic solvents do boil at very low tempeatures which are lowered in vacuum (lowered pressures). That is how much of the separation in oil refineries works -- different temperatures extract different fractions and deparates the gasoline from the mineral spirits (kerosene type solvent).

Pressure on the other hand raises boiling point. Pulling a vacuum on high volitility solvents (low boiling points) just vaporizes it faster -- that is how you can pull water out of wood faster -- use a vacuum to make it vaporized at lower temperature.

Right on Eugene and Dario!!! Use pressure unless you want lots of organic solvents in you shop because it will boil off much faster than you can pull any air out of wood.

Why does heating work -- you are changing the surface tension and it goes into the wood easier and faster, while limited the boiling of the solvent. Don Ward heat his polyester resin for some casting for the same reason- helps reduce bubbles and flow stick better because of the reduced surface tension -- better wetting.

P.S. You can add dye to MiniWax Wood Hardner and get colors --
 
The pressure makes sense to me, but how much psi do you hold for each several hour phase. I am trying this now and holding at 40 psi. I'm not usre if that's too much, not enough, or just right.
 
Me thinks the ole' Irish LiL' fellow needs a kilt!:biggrin::wink::biggrin: I wore mine to work last St. Patty's Day, only day I can x-dress and not raise eyebrow's:eek::biggrin::biggrin:

I'm wondering if you could use a sonic cleaner that has a heater for the water. I bought the larger one from HF a while ago, used it today to warm up and mix PR. It will warm up several inches of water and ultra sound the wood to boot. I dont want to blow up with a glass jar full of that stuff either.

Thoughts?
 
Walmart at one time had a hot plate with a single stove type element for under $20.00. Mine has served me very well for three years now. It may even be less I just don't remember how much I paid for it back then!
 
KenV said:
I think it is boyles law that relates the boiling temperature to pressure.
Click to expand...

I beg forgiveness at the beginning of this. It's been a loooong night with a colicky baby, and for once I get to talk about something of which I know quite a bit!

Anyway, not to pick nits, Ken, but Boyle's Law actually relates pressure and volume of an ideal gas (P1V1 = P2V2, so the same gas has one volume at one pressure, and a proportional volume at another pressure). You're thinking of component vapor pressure, which is also dependent upon temperature. Vapor pressure essentially defines the pressure that a liquid 'exerts' above its liquid state at a given temperature. Even at lower temperatures, liquids exert a vapor pressure that makes up part of the atmosphere directly above the liquids - this is why acetone has a strong vapor smell even when it's not boiling. The boiling temperature for any liquid is that temperature at which its vapor pressure equals ambient pressure; therefore, lower pressures (vacuums) allow for lower temperature boiling and vice versa.

edit: You know, I started to write a lot more, but I think this is enough for tonight. I'd hate to have a reputation as the didactic guy that irritates everyone. :redface:


daniel
 
Will a pickle jar work?

Will this work with a pickle jar instead of a canning jar? You know, the kind with the little button in the middle of the lid that tells you whether or not the seal has been broken.
 
gomeral said:
I beg forgiveness at the beginning of this. It's been a loooong night with a colicky baby, and for once I get to talk about something of which I know quite a bit!

Anyway, not to pick nits, Ken, but Boyle's Law actually relates pressure and volume of an ideal gas (P1V1 = P2V2, so the same gas has one volume at one pressure, and a proportional volume at another pressure). You're thinking of component vapor pressure, which is also dependent upon temperature. Vapor pressure essentially defines the pressure that a liquid 'exerts' above its liquid state at a given temperature. Even at lower temperatures, liquids exert a vapor pressure that makes up part of the atmosphere directly above the liquids - this is why acetone has a strong vapor smell even when it's not boiling. The boiling temperature for any liquid is that temperature at which its vapor pressure equals ambient pressure; therefore, lower pressures (vacuums) allow for lower temperature boiling and vice versa.

edit: You know, I started to write a lot more, but I think this is enough for tonight. I'd hate to have a reputation as the didactic guy that irritates everyone. :redface:


daniel
Click to expand...


TOO LATE!!!! :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:
 
Apparently Ultraseal is a product that is currently in the testing phase that will supposedly be the best home-version stabilizer yet. Bob from Ultraseal posted here asking for volunteers to try the stuff so it sounds like it might not be too long before it's available.
 
Minwax wood hardner with pickle jar?

MyKidsDad said:
Will this work with a pickle jar instead of a canning jar? You know, the kind with the little button in the middle of the lid that tells you whether or not the seal has been broken.
Click to expand...

Hello? Is this thing on? Asking again, will the canning jar/boiling water technique work with a pickle jar instead of a canning jar?
 
You might want to pose that question to Dario. I believe Curtis set up a pickle jar but I think that was with a vacuum pump. I dont see why a pickle jar wouldnt work but then again, I only tried that a few times and moved on to test other methods and impregnation resins.
 
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