Lower expetations question

[Smitty37]

Several people here in other threads have mentioned "lower expectations" when buying low priced kits and I'm curious as to just what they mean by "lower expectations"?

When you buy a lower priced kit what do you expect to be different from a higher priced kit (assuming they are similar styles). To you expect the lower priced kit to be harder to assemble? Do you expect defects in the plating? Do you expect the parts to not fit? Do you expect to make an ugly looking pen?

When I buy a kit, regardless of price, I expect the parts to fit, if it has 7mm tubes I want them to fit in a 7mm hole, and I expect the press fit parts to seat properly without needing excessive force or being able to be seated with finger pressure...I expect the plating to look good and I expect the pen to assemble as it should. In short, except for astetics and some things that are not immediately obvious - like durability I expect exactly the same things from a low cost kit that I do from a high cost one.

Tell me what you mean by lower expectations....

 

[bitshird]

The only thing that I have come to expect from the lower priced kit is the plating's just aren't quite as good, I see pit's in plating's in not so cheap pens, but I'm more concerned about the durability of the plating, The transmissions are probably all made in one or two shops/small factories so they will be about the same. I've noticed lately that I've had to open up the holes in more and more nibs, (not from your kits) as I've never purchased from you, but from my regular supplier, most of it seems to be caused by slightly heavier plating, or some black stuff in the nib which I believe is polishing media.
the durability of a cheap pen should be about the same as a more expensive pen particularly in a slim line. I don't expect a 1.50 pen to last as long and still look good after 10 years of use as a 30.00 kit, that would be stupid. but that is my take on cheap kits , regular platings against TI NO you pay for the plating and it should last longer than most everything other than chrome playing, they should have about the same wear factor. the transmission, that too should be about the same, consistency in part size, 99.99% of this is done on CNC if lathe bits are changed out as they wear then that too should be the same.

 

[Skye]

Yeah, I kind of think of cheap plating as well.

For me, there's only a buck or two between what is considered a trash kit and a decent chrome kit (talking slimlines) and if that means I can only afford Chrome and no Titanium kits then that's what I'd do.

 

[SDB777]

Defiantely not saying your stuff is like this......

I've ordered low end kits....Slimline's Gold(when I first started turning, to get some practice in) {kits were not from Smitty}

#1: Kits were missing pieces. Out of the ten kits I purchased there was pieces missing out of three of them. (At least all the pieces missing weren't the same in all the kits.)
#2: The finished kits were just given away to family. Most of those kits have no plating on the nibs, and even some of the centerbands are showing signs of wear.

Now if any of these were $20+ kits, I'd be fuming!

Scott (what you want for $2.70) B

 

[snyiper]

I have purchased lots of slims including ones from Smitty. I have used just about all the lower end platings you can find and my only complaint was the Matte black finish I have on my everyday pen. The finish is now a dull brass but hey it is a work pen the blank was never a thing of beauty just to test some finishes. Was it Smitty's ? I dont know it dosent matter to me. Everything fit and functioned all parts have always been there a few nibs needed opening but that is across the board with all slims no one in particuler. I have only had say 2 in 100 transmissions be bad that were not my fault but thats all part of the game. I just know I wont order matte Black finish because it does not hold up well from anyone.

 

[witz1976]

I too started on the cheaper slims as my first pens. The plating wore off within weeks, one I actually rubbed off the finish with my thumb. But also how well they fit during assembly, how well the mechanism works.

While I am currently selling to pay for my hobby, I am trying to get my sales from the higher end clientele so perhaps someday I can build this into a possible business. So I don't mess with the lower quality anymore, nor to I purchase products on a low expectation.

 

[Willee]

Yeah, I kind of think of cheap plating as well.

For me, there's only a buck or two between what is considered a trash kit and a decent chrome kit (talking slimlines) and if that means I can only afford Chrome and no Titanium kits then that's what I'd do.

Chrome Slimline kits are only $1.89 in quantities of 100.
Chrome is very hard and should last as long as TN.
A group buy should fix you up for a year or more.

The tubes and transmissions should all be the same regardless of the plating.

Why there is such a wide difference in price of the different plating's is a mystery to me.
Is it really that much harder to plate TN than it is to plate Chrome?
Cant be the material cost difference ... must be based on what the market will bear.
I see PSI is dropping the Chrome plating on some of its kits in favor of the more expensive and less durable Rodium plating.
Higher profits no doubt drove that to happen.

I guess if I were selling stuff to make a profit I would ask as much as I could get .... hey wait ... I am!

 

[Russianwolf]

I'll add a reply since I think I'm one of the people who mentioned it in other threads.

If I recall, The thread I said it in was the one you started on "quality versus luxury", and you had stated something along the lines that "if a product meets spec, then it is a quality product". To which I replied along the lines of "So if you lower your expectations, you will always have a quality product?".

But I never brought up price.

Now what do I expect from lower priced kits? It depends. If you are talking about $2 chrome slims, then I expect more than I would from $2 Chrome Baron (Chrome Baron's start at $7.20 usually). I would expect the $2 baron to be damaged, missing plating on parts, etc. since I was getting it for a major discount.

A long time ago I got some Chrome Cigars for $2 I think it was because they were defects. They worked, but had some issues with making the trannys work, and the little hex nut on top of the finial liked to pop off. But they were great for practice and gifts with a little effort. But I didn't expect them to be as problem free as the $4 chrome which were regular price. And no, I wouldn't call them quality even with my lowered expectations/price, just workable.

So see, it depends on what you mean by lower priced, are we talking apples to apples, or apples to oranges? $2 chrome slim to $1.80 chrome slim, or $2 chrome slim to $2 Chrome Baron?

 

[Gary Max]

I have a "Expensive" Pen that I have been working on for two months but don't have the time to finish it because I am working on pens I can sell.

 

[Smitty37]

Low Priced

I'll add a reply since I think I'm one of the people who mentioned it in other threads.

If I recall, The thread I said it in was the one you started on "quality versus luxury", and you had stated something along the lines that "if a product meets spec, then it is a quality product". To which I replied along the lines of "So if you lower your expectations, you will always have a quality product?".

But I never brought up price.

Now what do I expect from lower priced kits? It depends. If you are talking about $2 chrome slims, then I expect more than I would from $2 Chrome Baron (Chrome Baron's start at $7.20 usually). I would expect the $2 baron to be damaged, missing plating on parts, etc. since I was getting it for a major discount.

A long time ago I got some Chrome Cigars for $2 I think it was because they were defects. They worked, but had some issues with making the trannys work, and the little hex nut on top of the finial liked to pop off. But they were great for practice and gifts with a little effort. But I didn't expect them to be as problem free as the $4 chrome which were regular price. And no, I wouldn't call them quality even with my lowered expectations/price, just workable.

So see, it depends on what you mean by lower priced, are we talking apples to apples, or apples to oranges? $2 chrome slim to $1.80 chrome slim, or $2 chrome slim to $2 Chrome Baron?

I am not asking about factory seconds, closeouts, rejects or kits that fell off the truck and got run over by passing automobiles.

 

[Smitty37]

Help

Come on guys...the question is what do you expect to be different between low priced kits and higher priced kits, not what kind of kits you prefer to work with.

 

[ed4copies]

Smitty,

My experience with "low priced" slimlines goes back about 4 years to present.

Initially, the trannys did not fit right, about one in five was "smooshed" when inserting it correctly (yes, I do know how to insert a tranny). Then, several (3-4 in a hundred, not one in five) trannys did NOT work, once inserted.

The plated parts were also inconsistent in dimension, some fit loose, some would not go into the brass tube. Ultimately, I started "miking" every brass tube for a while, they were all the same, so the problem was the plating.

Then, chrome chipped off of some (again not a lot).

All that was the FIRST Christmas season.

By the second Christmas season, I decided to spend more and buy kits that did not take as long to assemble.

In fairness, I did NOT get any of the first group returned to me for plating--about a half dozen came back with trannys that stopped working---

I believe the product is much better now, but someone had to go through the "product development" and I wanted to see competition for low end kits.

At the time, I was paying up to $10 for a slimline kit, but as low as about $5.35 (IIRC) in quantity. So the $2.85 alternative looked good.

Hope this helps.

 

[greenmtnguy]

I would expect a smooth, durable finish that I am confident will stand up to usage for a good period of time, a snug fit with close tolerances between parts, and a failsafe transmission. I will pay more to ensure that a defective pen does not reflect on my reputation as a seller. I do not use standard gold plating because of durability issues. I will not use black enamel as I have had a miserable failure before attempting to sell the pens. The plating fell off in my wife's jacket pocket with nothing else in there to bang against in less than a week. These were not from Smitty so I know nothing about his product. It all depends on your market what level of pen components you buy.

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmmm

Yeah, I kind of think of cheap plating as well.

For me, there's only a buck or two between what is considered a trash kit and a decent chrome kit (talking slimlines) and if that means I can only afford Chrome and no Titanium kits then that's what I'd do.

Chrome Slimline kits are only $1.89 in quantities of 100. Only if you want to overpay....I'll sell them to you all day long for about $!.42
Chrome is very hard and should last as long as TN. Just about
A group buy should fix you up for a year or more.

The tubes and transmissions should all be the same regardless of the plating. For Slimlines I would also say also regardless of the price, I don't see anyone offering "low priced" spare tubes or transmissions.

Why there is such a wide difference in price of the different plating's is a mystery to me. Generally speaking there isn't...Gold, Chrome, Gun metal, Copper, Silver, Satin Gold, Satin Silver, etc are generally about the same price on the same style kit. TN Gold, Rhodium, Black NI are usually higher in the same kit style, sometimes a lot higher.
Is it really that much harder to plate TN than it is to plate Chrome?
Cant be the material cost difference ... must be based on what the market will bear. Prices always consider what the market will bear, few of us will sell for $5.00 what our customers think is worth $10.00.
I see PSI is dropping the Chrome plating on some of its kits in favor of the more expensive and less durable Rodium plating. I've also noticed that but the difference in durability is minor Rhodium is fairly hard.
Higher profits no doubt drove that to happen. Probably you're right.

I guess if I were selling stuff to make a profit I would ask as much as I could get .... hey wait ... I am!

There is a rule of thumb in business....you set your price to maximize your total profit...not necessarily your per unit profit. Particularily if you are a manufacturer, where your per unit cost decreases (up to a point) with an increase in the number of identical units produced.

 

[ed4copies]

The tubes and transmissions should all be the same regardless of the plating. For Slimlines I would also say also regardless of the price, I don't see anyone offering "low priced" spare tubes or transmissions.

I don't think this is accurate, Smitty. Transmissions on slimlines DO come in various quality. Price may not be the determining factor, but it is a clue.

 

[Daniel]

I can think of many differences. Actually to many to list. Some of them have been listed above. I have also made hundreds of pens from both. In my opinion Daycom makes the highest quality kits. I also do not make a lot of Berea pens. Not becasue I don't like the quality I simply don't.

I find a lot of little things that Dayacom does. they take extra measures to make quality threads and then protect them. tolerances are far more consistent in every way and plating is always good. I have even seen them protect the black stripe on a slimline pens clip with an adhesive plastic strip. In low priced kits I find the opposite. they do not even try to protect the finish. Clips that are not as strong, tolerances will vary from loose fitting parts to crushing the pen before they will fit. And this is from making 100 of the same type of kit at a time. Finishes are good at best. blistered or not even present at worst. But one of the biggest differences I see is in transmissons or other mechanical parts. transmissions in low priced kits are filled with a heavy grease. I suspect this is to help cover for poor manufacturing. sort of like filling a transmission with sawdust to keep it going for a while. This causes them to be stiff and anything but smooth in operation. I also find they wear out. I have never had a transmission from the more expensive kits wear out.

I also can feel a difference in the finished pen. But you would have to pick them up and use them yourself to see what I mean.

 

[Skye]

Transmissions on slimlines DO come in various quality. Price may not be the determining factor, but it is a clue.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]

Is it price or manufacturer? I've never really noticed a difference... well I've never looked for one lol

 

[ed4copies]

Skye,

Truth be told, we don't KNOW who manufactures. There could be dozens of small factories churning out pen transmissions in various levels of "acceptability".

I no longer believe Dayacom is a manufacturer, either. They just have "longer established" little factories. Now, are they experimenting with newer, cheaper sources to get products today???

We really don't know, do we??

Quality????
Got a dartboard???

 

[bitshird]

I think pen kits are about like our car manufacturers I don't believe any car maker makes every part for their car, many small parts and sud assemblies are contracted out, BUT there is SUPPOSED to be this thing called QC departments at both the actual manufacturer of the part or assembly and then again at the car makers plant. I would be willing to wager it's the same thing with the transmissions and plated parts for the pen kits we use, and I'm sure that there is a certain amount of graft and corruption in each. a marketing company may have the very best of intentions at it highest corporate level, but as the parts and pieces travel upstream some one some where is getting a "gift" from some one below on the industrial food chain.
my Son inklaw savant has carried a satin pearl cigar in his pants pocket for nearly 2-1/2 years, it is just starting to show signs of mistreatment. I buy a lot of less expensive kits from WoodnWhimsies and I've had very good luck with them, I don't know if all of their kits are PSI or if some of their lower priced items are from Rhizing <SP> my Chinese is horrible or who they are from but I have had very little trouble with their cheap kits. I guess I've actually gotten more than I've expected. I don't mind spending 1.75 on a deluxe slimline knowing that I may have a problem say 1 out of every 50 that I buy, it gives me extra parts any way, I only get 18 to 20 dollars for a slim line any way and as long as my customers are happy I'm happy.

 

[Smitty37]

Maybe

The tubes and transmissions should all be the same regardless of the plating. For Slimlines I would also say also regardless of the price, I don't see anyone offering "low priced" spare tubes or transmissions.

I don't think this is accurate, Smitty. Transmissions on slimlines DO come in various quality. Price may not be the determining factor, but it is a clue.

I am simply saying I don't see anyone offering spare transmissions or tubes in more than one price range. PSI does offer different 7mm tubes as spares for pencil kits than for pen kits. I don't know if others do as well.

I would think if someone is using a better more reliable transmission in their offerings they would do something to distinguish it from cheaper less reliable ones and offer them as upgrades to lower priced kits. Now it is possible that they do and I've just never seen it. I currently have 7mm kits made in China and 7mm kits made in Taiwan (probably by Dayacom) and I can't tell the transmissions apart.

 

[Smitty37]

maybe

I can think of many differences. Actually to many to list. Some of them have been listed above. I have also made hundreds of pens from both. In my opinion Daycom makes the highest quality kits. I also do not make a lot of Berea pens. Not becasue I don't like the quality I simply don't.

I find a lot of little things that Dayacom does. they take extra measures to make quality threads and then protect them. tolerances are far more consistent in every way and plating is always good. I have even seen them protect the black stripe on a slimline pens clip with an adhesive plastic strip. In low priced kits I find the opposite. they do not even try to protect the finish. Clips that are not as strong, tolerances will vary from loose fitting parts to crushing the pen before they will fit. And this is from making 100 of the same type of kit at a time. Finishes are good at best. blistered or not even present at worst. But one of the biggest differences I see is in transmissons or other mechanical parts. transmissions in low priced kits are filled with a heavy grease. I suspect this is to help cover for poor manufacturing. sort of like filling a transmission with sawdust to keep it going for a while. This causes them to be stiff and anything but smooth in operation. I also find they wear out. I have never had a transmission from the more expensive kits wear out.

I also can feel a difference in the finished pen. But you would have to pick them up and use them yourself to see what I mean.

I seriously doubt that I'd notice any difference in a slimline based on the manufacturer of the kit. Perhaps on some of the bigger styles but not slimlines (I have limited experience trying these).

 

[Smitty37]

Thank you

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts.

Consider this. When I said low priced vs more expensive you all seemed to gravitate to $2.00 kit vs $4.00 kit. But the same question can apply to $5.00 kit vs $10.00 kit or $10 kit vs $20.00 kit.

There generally seem to be two schools of thought presented. Horror stories about low end kits...and people who use them all the time and are happy with them.

But I still take away from this what I came with. The buyers of low end kits have every right to expect them to assemble correctly and work correctly when assembled. They should probably expect the working parts to last as long as more expensive kits, but the plating probably not as long.


interestingly enough I can get TI gold and Platinum (more likely Rhodium) to sell for about 50 - 60 cents more than 24kt gold and Chrome. Why don't I, nobody asks for them.

 

[soligen]

Well, here is my recent experience. I bought some lower end cigars kits. I wont say from who. I had previously bought a "regular" cigar kit adn bough these becasue I thought they were a deal, and the plating was chrome. I was disappointed in 2 aspects of the kit.

1) The clip was below par. From the dront it looked OK, but the sides were rough and plated over. The edges basically looked un finished after teh part was puched out of the sheet stock. The clip was also noticable less strong than the other kit I had previously purchased from another seller.

2) The transmission was below par. The out-dents in the transmission weakly engaged the activator tube, as a result the upper barrel easily continued to turn after the refill was fully extended. I had to steal a transmission from my carry pen to finish the pen, which I will need to replace sometime.

So you see, there is more difference than just plating.

Since I just typed this up, I think I'll e-mail the seller with this, as I have 2 more kits.

 

[JerrySambrook]

smitty,
a couple of the things that I have noticed i almost 20 years of making these on and off:
There still is a difference in slimline tubes. I have recently (within the past year) come across three different wall thicknesses of tubes, with the od's being very close.
There is also at least three different transmissions still out there.
There are two different styles of all metal and one that has plastic "guts"

The plastic guts ones do collapse rather easily on themselves if the wrong tube is used. That is why a while back, I stopped putting the parts into pins and pulling, because I was having too many difficulties due to the assembly after.

Lastly, and some of the longer turning people here would remember, the platings used to be real horrid and wore off real easy, and the upgrade golds were just covred with an epoxy coating. And so, it has made some of us a little more aware of the plating and we will question the durability and defectlessness of todays platings as well

I agree that there is no reason that a slimline Ti should be 6 to 12 dollars, except, we are also in part guilty of what things cost, We as a group explain in adnauseum how we price, what we charge, etc. and I do think the vendors see this, and structure prices accordingly as well.
But that is a different topic

Jerry

 

[Smitty37]

It didn't meet your expectations

Well, here is my recent experience. I bought some lower end cigars kits. I wont say from who. I had previously bought a "regular" cigar kit adn bough these becasue I thought they were a deal, and the plating was chrome. I was disappointed in 2 aspects of the kit.

1) The clip was below par. From the dront it looked OK, but the sides were rough and plated over. The edges basically looked un finished after teh part was puched out of the sheet stock. The clip was also noticable less strong than the other kit I had previously purchased from another seller.

2) The transmission was below par. The out-dents in the transmission weakly engaged the activator tube, as a result the upper barrel easily continued to turn after the refill was fully extended. I had to steal a transmission from my carry pen to finish the pen, which I will need to replace sometime.

So you see, there is more difference than just plating.

Since I just typed this up, I think I'll e-mail the seller with this, as I have 2 more kits.

This is what I'm getting at...the kits don't meet your expectations so even though you paid a lower price, you thought the kit should be of good quality, should go together right and should work properly. I agree.

 

[Smitty37]

Thanks

smitty,
a couple of the things that I have noticed i almost 20 years of making these on and off:
There still is a difference in slimline tubes. I have recently (within the past year) come across three different wall thicknesses of tubes, with the od's being very close. I know that PSI sells spare slimline pen tube and spare slimline Pencil tubes, the difference according to PSI is wall thickness.
There is also at least three different transmissions still out there.
There are two different styles of all metal and one that has plastic "guts"
I don't think I have run into any with plastic. It's possible that I've seen two different metal styles, but I really wasn't looking so I could have. I have not seen anyone selling more that 1 twist mechanism as a loose part.
The plastic guts ones do collapse rather easily on themselves if the wrong tube is used. That is why a while back, I stopped putting the parts into pins and pulling, because I was having too many difficulties due to the assembly after. Someone told me a while back that I shouldn't assume that the kits made by different manufacturers would have interchangeable parts even if they were the same style kit. I didn't quite understand why but now I guess I do.

Lastly, and some of the longer turning people here would remember, the platings used to be real horrid and wore off real easy, and the upgrade golds were just covred with an epoxy coating. And so, it has made some of us a little more aware of the plating and we will question the durability and defectlessness of todays platings as well

I agree that there is no reason that a slimline Ti should be 6 to 12 dollars, except, we are also in part guilty of what things cost, We as a group explain in adnauseum how we price, what we charge, etc. and I do think the vendors see this, and structure prices accordingly as well.
But that is a different topic

Jerry

Vendors will price at what they think will give them the best bottom line. That is usually neither the highest or lowest price they can get unless they are at full production where adding one more unit of production will actually increase their per unit cost (the law of diminishing returns).

 

[DurocShark]

I guess I'll dive in.

I expect kits to fit together properly and work mechanically, regardless of the price paid.

I expect the finishes or plating to stay acceptable for a few weeks at least, depending on the material.

ie: 24k gold plate, epoxy finishes.

 

[ed4copies]

Vendors will price at what they think will give them the best bottom line. That is usually neither the highest or lowest price they can get unless they are at full production where adding one more unit of production will actually increase their per unit cost (the law of diminishing returns).

This is only true in the world of major companies, where production lines are owned by the company. The pen-part-making world is "independent contractors"--and "Retailing agents" --neither one is required to have "full employment of resources" for the other.

So, price is more elastic and demand (and fora like this that show pricing strategies) can be manipulated to maximize profit per piece, rather than overall profit.

ALL of the above is CONJECTURE---NOT FACT.

You are welcome to disagree. Just talking points.

 

[Smitty37]

Diminishing returns

Vendors will price at what they think will give them the best bottom line. That is usually neither the highest or lowest price they can get unless they are at full production where adding one more unit of production will actually increase their per unit cost (the law of diminishing returns).

This is only true in the world of major companies, where production lines are owned by the company. The pen-part-making world is "independent contractors"--and "Retailing agents" --neither one is required to have "full employment of resources" for the other.

So, price is more elastic and demand (and fora like this that show pricing strategies) can be manipulated to maximize profit per piece, rather than overall profit.

ALL of the above is CONJECTURE---NOT FACT.

You are welcome to disagree. Just talking points.

In Economics "the law of diminishing returns" is an axiom that applies to all production...regardless of who owns the actual production line it will eventually hit a point where adding one more unit of production will increase the cost of that unit and any additional units. The most common example (in industrialized nations) is overtime pay, regardless of what is being produced if overtime pay is required to increase production per unit costs will go up and either prices must go up or profits will go down.

There seems to be, for at least one source, no advantage to production runs of more than 2000 kits because that is the point where they cut off per kit discounts on larger orders regardless of the style of kit. Since further quantity discounts would result in at least some larger order quantities the company would have an incentive to offer them if there was an economic advantage to them.

Now the point of diminishing returns is not necessarily the same for all products, I recall seeing companies selling production over runs of 20,000 units (I believe it was watches from Korea but I can't say for sure)

 

[JerrySambrook]

Smitty,
Waste a few dollars, and take a couple apart.
There typically is a big difference in the inners of a tranny

And CSUSA does carry two separate lines of slimlines as well as a few other styles.
They have the apprentice series and the artisan series, and are discenable in difference.

As far as production runs, almost every product has a formula where the profit line increases on that product, until a certain point, then other factors, such as machine maintainance, labor costs, etc come into play and then the cost starts to take an upward increas in cost of manufacture, thereby reducing profits

 

[Chasper]

Back to the original question, my expecations for a low priced pen kit are exactly the same as for a higher priced kit in terms of the physical make-up of the kit. The plating should be consistent and durable, the parts should fit well.

However, from a higher priced kit I also expect a higher level of origionality and design flair. I will pay more for uniqueness, creativity and quality design. These are soft attributes, but they are real. I don't expect stand-out design from a low priced kit, it is my job as a pen artists to add the design flair when I make a pen from a low end kit.

Additionally, if 2-3 out of 100 of a $1.00 kit are bad I'll just throw them away, but I will remember where I bought them. If one out of one $50 kits is bad, I'll look to the supplier to resolve the problem.

BTW: That is a novel interperation on the Law of Dimishing Returns. This definition is more accurate: "The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved."

It is not accurate to say that costs go up after a certain volume level, but rather that after a certain point the effort to achieve additional cost reduction becomes more difficult. Volume will always decrease cost, but after a certain point the cost reductions are not worth the effort.

I recently bought two different kits in 3,000 quantity and was able to knock a few pennies off the cost from the price quote I had received for 2,000.

 

[Smitty37]

Diminishing returns

Back to the original question, my expecations for a low priced pen kit are exactly the same as for a higher priced kit in terms of the physical make-up of the kit. The plating should be consistent and durable, the parts should fit well.

However, from a higher priced kit I also expect a higher level of origionality and design flair. I will pay more for uniqueness, creativity and quality design. These are soft attributes, but they are real. I don't expect stand-out design from a low priced kit, it is my job as a pen artists to add the design flair when I make a pen from a low end kit.

Additionally, if 2-3 out of 100 of a $1.00 kit are bad I'll just throw them away, but I will remember where I bought them. If one out of one $50 kits is bad, I'll look to the supplier to resolve the problem.

BTW: That is a novel interperation on the Law of Dimishing Returns. This definition is more accurate: "The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved." My definition is straight out of economics 101 as applied to the production of goods, and as near as I can tell that's why they call it the LAW of diminishing returns...it always happens or it would not be referred to as a 'law" it would be a hypothosis or theory.
It is not accurate to say that costs go up after a certain volume level, but rather that after a certain point the effort to achieve additional cost reduction becomes more difficult. Volume will always decrease cost, but after a certain point the cost reductions are not worth the effort.

I recently bought two different kits in 3,000 quantity and was able to knock a few pennies off the cost from the price quote I had received for 2,000.

It certainly is accurate to say that costs go up after a certain volume level. Increased volume will only decrease costs until the maximum capacity is reached then increasing volume will increase costs per unit of production. Lets say for instance a factory working 1 shift 5 days a week can produce up to 500 widgets per week utilizing the full capacity of their workers and machines...then, increasing production will decrease costs until that capacity is all utilized. Then the factory owner will have to do something to get more production. The first step is usually overtime which costs more than straight time, hence cost goes up.

But would he do it for 2100? My guess is no. He is just making a minor adjustment in his per unit profit to secure the higher overall profit on the order. You're probably a good customer. That would have nothing to do with the production costs, because we have no way of knowing what the actual most economal production run is.

 

[Smitty37]

OK

Smitty,
Waste a few dollars, and take a couple apart.
There typically is a big difference in the inners of a tranny - I was simply saying that I don't see anyone out there offering more than one stand alone slimline transmission.

And CSUSA does carry two separate lines of slimlines as well as a few other styles. So does PSI and any number of other vendors, but I'm not sure how that affects what our ecpectations should be when we buy a kit.
They have the apprentice series and the artisan series, and are discenable in difference. I hope you don't think I am implying that there are no differences between high and low priced kits. If there weren't the high priced kits would disappear. I'm not asking to compare higher and lower priced kits I'm asking to compare (if that's the right word) expectations.

As far as production runs, almost every product has a formula where the profit line increases on that product, until a certain point, then other factors, such as machine maintainance, labor costs, etc come into play and then the cost starts to take an upward increas in cost of manufacture, thereby reducing profits

That is called the law of diminishing returns....

 

[Chasper]

It certainly is accurate to say that costs go up after a certain volume level. Increased volume will only decrease costs until the maximum capacity is reached then increasing volume will increase costs per unit of production. Lets say for instance a factory working 1 shift 5 days a week can produce up to 500 widgets per week utilizing the full capacity of their workers and machines...then, increasing production will decrease costs until that capacity is all utilized. Then the factory owner will have to do something to get more production. The first step is usually overtime which costs more than straight time, hence cost goes up.

But would he do it for 2100? My guess is no. He is just making a minor adjustment in his per unit profit to secure the higher overall profit on the order. You're probably a good customer. That would have nothing to do with the production costs, because we have no way of knowing what the actual most economal production run is.

I did not say that it is not accurate that costs go up after a certain volume level. I said that is it not an example of the Law of Diminishing Returns. Costs go up because investment in greater capacity and/or overtime is required, not because of the law of diminishing returns.

 

[Smitty37]

Economics 101

It certainly is accurate to say that costs go up after a certain volume level. Increased volume will only decrease costs until the maximum capacity is reached then increasing volume will increase costs per unit of production. Lets say for instance a factory working 1 shift 5 days a week can produce up to 500 widgets per week utilizing the full capacity of their workers and machines...then, increasing production will decrease costs until that capacity is all utilized. Then the factory owner will have to do something to get more production. The first step is usually overtime which costs more than straight time, hence cost goes up.

But would he do it for 2100? My guess is no. He is just making a minor adjustment in his per unit profit to secure the higher overall profit on the order. You're probably a good customer. That would have nothing to do with the production costs, because we have no way of knowing what the actual most economal production run is.

I did not say that it is not accurate that costs go up after a certain volume level. I said that is it not an example of the Law of Diminishing Returns. Costs go up because investment in greater capacity and/or overtime is required, not because of the law of diminishing returns.

That IS the law of diminishing returns with respect to production of goods..When you can no longer increase the volume of production without increasing the per unit cost hence reducing profit.
Wikipedia puts it this way...in a production system with fixed and variable inputs (say factory size and labor), each additional unit of the variable input (i.e., man-hours) yields smaller and smaller increases in outputs, also reducing each worker's mean productivity. Conversely, producing one more unit of output will cost increasingly more (owing to the major amount of variable inputs being used, to little effect). In the real world this usually happens after maximum economical capacity has been reached...i.e. full production.

 

[ossaguy]

I tried the low-priced kits recently,and ended up not being able to use any of the trannies bcause they have no detent positio,so while using they roll out of the writing position.You can feel this turning in in you hand right out of the bag.These have no grooves on the gold part,made in China.They are PSI kits.But I liked all of the different platings available,and the different clip designs.

The refills don't write well either.I like the way the 7mm Rockler refills write the best,of what I've tried.The clips on the cheap Rockler kits fits sloppy loose in the cap so they migrate,though.

So I ended up buying on sale 15 Rockler 7mm kits,which have the grooved tranny,and twith he refills that write real nice,and am combing the 2 to make a decent pen,to salvage the cheap-pen purchase.

I think I'll be paying more and getting the CSUSA Artisan pens next time.The end caps are a tight fit into the clip,so the clip doesn't migrate in use,and the plating on the clips looks real nice,without the stamped steel-like burred edge on the sides.I only wish they offerered more variety in platings and clips.I hate it when all my pens start looking the same.

So I expected a little lower quality in the cheap kits,but it was so much that they were unusable.I don't want to spend all that time on turning out nice barrels,only to give someone a junky finished product.

Live and learn,at least I know what to get next time.


Steve

 

[DurocShark]

My only complaint about the CSUSA Artisan line is the stupid "A" logo on everything. I refuse to brand my pens with CSUSA's logo.

 

[ossaguy]

Yeah,me too...forgot about that.It would make a nice pen for a monogramed gift for an "Art,Allen,Alice,etc...though

So is there a kit that is as good fit and finish as what you get in the CSUSA "Create a Pen" kits for about the same money,yet has a better variety in platings?

I hope I'm not veering off topic here or highjacking,but thought I'd ask.

Steve

 

[Smitty37]

Thanks

I tried the low-priced kits recently,and ended up not being able to use any of the trannies bcause they have no detent positio,so while using they roll out of the writing position.You can feel this turning in in you hand right out of the bag.These have no grooves on the gold part,made in China.They are PSI kits.But I liked all of the different platings available,and the different clip designs.

The refills don't write well either.I like the way the 7mm Rockler refills write the best,of what I've tried.The clips on the cheap Rockler kits fits sloppy loose in the cap so they migrate,though.

So I ended up buying on sale 15 Rockler 7mm kits,which have the grooved tranny,and twith he refills that write real nice,and am combing the 2 to make a decent pen,to salvage the cheap-pen purchase.

I think I'll be paying more and getting the CSUSA Artisan pens next time.The end caps are a tight fit into the clip,so the clip doesn't migrate in use,and the plating on the clips looks real nice,without the stamped steel-like burred edge on the sides.I only wish they offerered more variety in platings and clips.I hate it when all my pens start looking the same.

So I expected a little lower quality in the cheap kits,but it was so much that they were unusable.I don't want to spend all that time on turning out nice barrels,only to give someone a junky finished product.

Live and learn,at least I know what to get next time.


Steve

So it sounds to me like you said that you want a kit that will produce an good looking pen that works well and writes well regardless of the price of the kit. In your case, the low priced kits didn't meet your expectations.

 

[ossaguy]

Well, they were so cheap it was worth a shot I think.I remember another post here that said the nice Slimline kit from AS was like the best,even though they cost more.With having a different look & all,I was going to give one of those a try.

What I've learned so far,is when when it comes down to it,a pen is a writing tool and if the mechanicals of it are not up to par,that's bad.I'm trying to improve my skills on the turning and finishing end of it.

So for those "Special" pens,like the kind you'd make your Mom or Dad,I'd like to know what the best quality kit is out there,and I'm setting aside those super-nice blanks I have gotten for such an occasion.Hopefully by then,I'll have made enough "shop" pens that I can really make a great one for someone special.

Thanks,
Steve