Lining

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Drewby108 said:
What do you mean by lining?
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My impression is that it is common to insert a material (acrylic/ebonite) inside a wood body/cap to stabilize the wood material. I've seen multiple pen examples that say the pen is "lined", trying to learn the concept/technique.
 
I am veery new to pens....but - isn't that what is done with the brass tube that is glued into the pen blank that you turn?
 
wtturner said:
My impression is that it is common to insert a material (acrylic/ebonite) inside a wood body/cap to stabilize the wood material. I've seen multiple pen examples that say the pen is "lined", trying to learn the concept/technique.
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I prefer to think of it the other way round: I make the pen out of ebonite or acrylic acetate or alumilite, then add some wood paneling to the outside.

The reason I think of it this way is that the resin isn't just to add structural support (that is one important factor though).

The other important factor is that it's very difficult to cut clean screw threads in wood. It's not impossible, but you have to be very good at it and usually it requires specialist threading jigs, not simple taps and dies. So the ebonite/acetate/alumilite/whatever is where I cut the threads and to me that's what makes the pen. The wood is window dressing.

Gluing a brass tube into a hole drilled in the wood does add strength to it - but does nothing else. This ain't a kit pen, nobody is going to cut those screw threads for you.
 
wtturner said:
Can anyone point me to instructions/tutorial on lining a wood pen with another material?
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I think your wording is confusing us. Could you give an example or a better explanation of what you are trying to do. Is this a kitless fountain pen you are trying to make?
 
wtturner said:
Can anyone point me to instructions/tutorial on lining a wood pen with another material?
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I don't remember seeing a tutorial for it - but it's very straightforward. Here's how I'd make a pen barrel - the cap is slightly different but you'll be able to work it out.

- decide the diameter of the hole you are going to drill and tap in the (for example) acrylic acetate barrel (but don't drill it yet);

- decide how thick you want the wall of that "liner" to be, and turn down the outside to that diameter, leaving a thicker chunk where the external threads for the cap to screw onto will be;

- drill a hole in the wood that's just a little larger than that liner (you need some space for the glue);

- true the open end of the wood, you want a clean line where the liner hits the wood;

- scratch a groove the length of the liner, to allow air to escape when you glue it into the wood block (epoxy makes a really good air seal, you won't get the liner to stay in there with compressed air trapped in the bottom of the hole);

- 2 part epoxy the liner into the hole;

- clamp it, there's a good chance it will auto-eject even if you scratched a pressure relief groove

Now you can turn down the wood and the part of the acrylic where you'll be cutting threads; cut the external threads; screw on a threaded washer that you made in advance, to prevent the stresses of drilling and tapping the inner hole from blowing out the material, and then drill and tap the barrel.
 
duncsuss said:
I don't remember seeing a tutorial for it - but it's very straightforward. Here's how I'd make a pen barrel - the cap is slightly different but you'll be able to work it out.

- decide the diameter of the hole you are going to drill and tap in the (for example) acrylic acetate barrel (but don't drill it yet);

- decide how thick you want the wall of that "liner" to be, and turn down the outside to that diameter, leaving a thicker chunk where the external threads for the cap to screw onto will be;

- drill a hole in the wood that's just a little larger than that liner (you need some space for the glue);

- true the open end of the wood, you want a clean line where the liner hits the wood;

- scratch a groove the length of the liner, to allow air to escape when you glue it into the wood block (epoxy makes a really good air seal, you won't get the liner to stay in there with compressed air trapped in the bottom of the hole);

- 2 part epoxy the liner into the hole;

- clamp it, there's a good chance it will auto-eject even if you scratched a pressure relief groove

Now you can turn down the wood and the part of the acrylic where you'll be cutting threads; cut the external threads; screw on a threaded washer that you made in advance, to prevent the stresses of drilling and tapping the inner hole from blowing out the material, and then drill and tap the barrel.
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I'm pretty new to this kitless deal but have picked up on two terms that helped. Insert, this is what you use to "insert" into a material that will not accept threads. Like wood. This usually only extends a short distance into the material, like an inch. A liner is used for the same purpose and to serve as a barrier to prevent ink on a nib from drying out. This would occur in a wood pen. I'm not convinced there is any structural benefit. I understand others do believe there is a benefit. I'm still trying to drill a hole straight🥴
Jim
 
JamesC said:
I'm not convinced there is any structural benefit.
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I agree - for straight-grained solid wood, there might not be a benefit beyond being able to cut threads in it and resist ink spills.

But if you are working with burl, or cross-cut, or diagonal-cut, or punky, or otherwise iffy wood - you absolutely gain structural integrity from a liner (provided the liner itself is structurally sound!)
 
jttheclockman said:
I think your wording is confusing us. Could you give an example or a better explanation of what you are trying to do. Is this a kitless fountain pen you are trying to make?
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I think Duncan captured what I was looking for.
A related question, do you usually make the liner almost the full length of the cap or body?
 
duncsuss said:
I don't remember seeing a tutorial for it - but it's very straightforward. Here's how I'd make a pen barrel - the cap is slightly different but you'll be able to work it out.

- decide the diameter of the hole you are going to drill and tap in the (for example) acrylic acetate barrel (but don't drill it yet);

- decide how thick you want the wall of that "liner" to be, and turn down the outside to that diameter, leaving a thicker chunk where the external threads for the cap to screw onto will be;

- drill a hole in the wood that's just a little larger than that liner (you need some space for the glue);

- true the open end of the wood, you want a clean line where the liner hits the wood;

- scratch a groove the length of the liner, to allow air to escape when you glue it into the wood block (epoxy makes a really good air seal, you won't get the liner to stay in there with compressed air trapped in the bottom of the hole);

- 2 part epoxy the liner into the hole;

- clamp it, there's a good chance it will auto-eject even if you scratched a pressure relief groove

Now you can turn down the wood and the part of the acrylic where you'll be cutting threads; cut the external threads; screw on a threaded washer that you made in advance, to prevent the stresses of drilling and tapping the inner hole from blowing out the material, and then drill and tap the barrel.
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thanks for the detailed explanation. Especially the groove, I never would have thought of that.
How thick do people typically make the wood walls.
Every day in kitless is an adventure for me. I guess that is what makes it interesting.
 
JamesC said:
I'm pretty new to this kitless deal but have picked up on two terms that helped. Insert, this is what you use to "insert" into a material that will not accept threads. Like wood. This usually only extends a short distance into the material, like an inch. A liner is used for the same purpose and to serve as a barrier to prevent ink on a nib from drying out. This would occur in a wood pen. I'm not convinced there is any structural benefit. I understand others do believe there is a benefit. I'm still trying to drill a hole straight🥴
Jim
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working on that straight hole thing too!
 
duncsuss said:
Now you can turn down the wood and the part of the acrylic where you'll be cutting threads; cut the external threads; screw on a threaded washer that you made in advance, to prevent the stresses of drilling and tapping the inner hole from blowing out the material, and then drill and tap the barrel.
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can you elaborate a little on the "threaded washer"? I understand the concept but I'm having a hard time envisioning what this looks like or how to make it? Thanks
 
How thick do people typically make the wood walls.
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Can't say what others do, but I usually aim for a millimeter or more. I feel less than that runs a risk of getting too close to the innards.
can you elaborate a little on the "threaded washer"?
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Sure thing.

I bought a rod of 1" diameter Delrin (a.k.a. acetal) from Delvies or maybe US Plastics to make these from.

In one end drill about 1/2" deep, tap the hole without hitting the bottom to avoid stripping threads. Trim away the first couple of threads to allow relief when mating to threads that aren't fully formed all the way to a hard stop.

Then just part off the threaded portion - maybe 3/8" - and voila, you have a washer that you can screw onto the external barrel threads.

The aim is to have it prevent the barrel from expanding/exploding when you drill and tap the hole. The thinner the wall you're working on, the more valuable this is.
 
I think the accepted term for the "lining or insert" would be sleeve. I have made three or 4 and I sleeved the entire length of both the barrel and cap. The cap especially needs to be sleeved the total length. Wood caps that are not sleeved will allow the ink to dry in the feed. The moisture from the ink will move into the wood cap if the cap is not sleeved. I have a wood FP I made and the cap is not sleeved and it will not write after sitting for a day or so. All of my other fountain pens, wood or resin, do not fail to write even after being left for several days.

I drill and thread the sleeve material as if I were making the pen from that material. I place the (sleeve) blank on the mandrel and reduce the diameter to my target diameter but make sure I stop at a diameter for which I have the correct drill bit. I thin drill the wood blank and glue in the sleeve and complete that part of the pen after the glue dries.

I have made sections much the same way. But wood sections seem to turn dark as the pen is used so I have stopped making sections from wood.

There is some excellent information in this thread.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
wtturner said:
Thanks, it helps to have the right terminology. I think I will stick to acrylic for a while before I start destroying wood blanks.
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Practice on blanks that are common and not expensive. Ebonite is an excellent material to use for sleeves but it can be expensive. I use acrylic acetate or blanks made with Alumilite urethane resin. I have not tried threading blanks made from epoxy resins. Maybe someone will let us know how epoxy resin works for threading.
Don
 
its_virgil said:
I think the accepted term for the "lining or insert" would be sleeve. I have made three or 4 and I sleeved the entire length of both the barrel and cap. The cap especially needs to be sleeved the total length. Wood caps that are not sleeved will allow the ink to dry in the feed. The moisture from the ink will move into the wood cap if the cap is not sleeved. I have a wood FP I made and the cap is not sleeved and it will not write after sitting for a day or so. All of my other fountain pens, wood or resin, do not fail to write even after being left for several days.

I drill and thread the sleeve material as if I were making the pen from that material. I place the (sleeve) blank on the mandrel and reduce the diameter to my target diameter but make sure I stop at a diameter for which I have the correct drill bit. I thin drill the wood blank and glue in the sleeve and complete that part of the pen after the glue dries.

I have made sections much the same way. But wood sections seem to turn dark as the pen is used so I have stopped making sections from wood.

There is some excellent information in this thread.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
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This.
 
wtturner said:
FYI, it appears Amazon is a pretty good source to order Delrin in small quantities.
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What is this "small quantities" of which you speak? It's a term that is not familiar to me 😂

Most likely I was also buying a bunch of clear acrylic acetate rod (cast, never extruded) at the same time as a couple of different diameter lengths of Delrin. I use clear rod when I'm making prototypes so I can see, from the outside, what measurements work when drilling, tapping, and so on.
 
wtturner said:
Can anyone point me to instructions/tutorial on lining a wood pen with another material?
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You've gotten lots of excellent information for your question about lining a wood barrel, or making a sleeve. Here are a few pictures.
Do a good turn daily!
Don


20220715_154024-01.jpeg20220715_154032-01.jpeg

20220715_154854-01.jpeg
 
JamesC said:
Don, is this just an example or is it your work flow? This appears to be a cap. Would you affix the sleeve and then turn in a 4 jaw chuck? Still working on a better process over here in Dallas
Jim
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The pieces not glued yet are for the barrel and the last picture is the cap. The cap and barrell are turned on special mandrels. One each for the cap, barrel and section. More thread sizes for different diameter pens will require additional mandrels.


Beaufortink.com has an excellent article on the process and what tools are needed. Info in the library here and on youtube.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

20220715_222805-01.jpeg20220715_222606-01.jpeg
 
The 3 first pictures with the thuya burl has M14 cap/barrell threads. The barrell sleeve was drilled with a 9mm bit (the section threads are M10). I turned the sleeve to a diameter of 12mm(actually just a bit over 12mm). Drilled the thuya blank with a 12mm and sanded ths sleeve so it fit nicely into the hole in the blank. Glued using two part epoxy...30 minute cure time for a little added strength. (Longer cure time = stronger bond so I've been told.)

The cap sleeve was drilled with a 13.2mm bit and reduced to a diameter of 15mm. A 15mm hole was drilled in the thuya blank and the sleeve glued in place. The same procedure was used for the cap. Turner just a very small amt over 15mm and sanded to fit the hole.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
Sleeve
its_virgil said:
The 3 first pictures with the thuya burl has M14 cap/barrell threads. The barrell sleeve was drilled with a 9mm bit (the section threads are M10). I turned the sleeve to a diameter of 12mm(actually just a bit over 12mm). Drilled the thuya blank with a 12mm and sanded ths sleeve so it fit nicely into the hole in the blank. Glued using two part epoxy...30 minute cure time for a little added strength. (Longer cure time = stronger bond so I've been told.)

The cap sleeve was drilled with a 13.2mm bit and reduced to a diameter of 15mm. A 15mm hole was drilled in the thuya blank and the sleeve glued in place. The same procedure was used for the cap. Turner just a very small amt over 15mm and sanded to fit the hole.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
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Sleeve material ebonite or acrylic or something else?

its_virgil said:
its_virgil said:
The 3 first pictures with the thuya burl has M14 cap/barrell threads. The barrell sleeve was drilled with a 9mm bit (the section threads are M10). I turned the sleeve to a diameter of 12mm(actually just a bit over 12mm). Drilled the thuya blank with a 12mm and sanded ths sleeve so it fit nicely into the hole in the blank. Glued using two part epoxy...30 minute cure time for a little added strength. (Longer cure time = stronger bond so I've been told.)

The cap sleeve was drilled with a 13.2mm bit and reduced to a diameter of 15mm. A 15mm hole was drilled in the thuya blank and the sleeve glued in place. The same procedure was used for the cap. Turner just a very small amt over 15mm and sanded to fit the hole.
Do a good turn daily!
Click to expand...
The 3 first pictures with the thuya burl has M14 cap/barrell threads. The barrell sleeve was drilled with a 9mm bit (the section threads are M10). I turned the sleeve to a diameter of 12mm(actually just a bit over 12mm). Drilled the thuya blank with a 12mm and sanded ths sleeve so it fit nicely into the hole in the blank. Glued using two part epoxy...30 minute cure time for a little added strength. (Longer cure time = stronger bond so I've been told.)

The cap sleeve was drilled with a 13.2mm bit and reduced to a diameter of 15mm. A 15mm hole was drilled in the thuya blank and the sleeve glued in place. The same procedure was used for the cap. Turner just a very small amt over 15mm and sanded to fit the hole.
Do a good turn daily!
Click to expand...
 
its_virgil said:
I use ebonite but it is a bit expensive. What I use most is Acrylic Acetate in black. It turns, threads and polishes nicely.

Alumilite clear or clear slow work well also. I've not used epoxy resin.
Don
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Thanks so much for your input. final question: where do you source acrylic acetate in black?
 
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