"Kitless" Kits

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Texatdurango

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It's a fact that going "kitless" will require certain taps and dies to cut threads for pen bodies, caps and finials where some sizes are dictated by the multi-start taps used or the size of fountain nib feeds used. Along with those taps and dies come certain size bits which are required to drill the proper size holes.

Almost every day someone is posting asking which size bit or tap to buy and wondering where is the best place to buy a few bits. One of the better sources for quality tools has a minimum order of $25 so that often kills a good deal.

I got to thinking about this last night and came up with an idea.

What if...... A member (me) got together a list of the bits, taps and dies that one will certainly need to start making their own creations, put the tools together with written instructions as to how, when and where the tools are to be used then package everything together and offer them as a "Kitless" starter kit?

My thinking is that a lot of folks could place one order, get exactly what they need, pay shipping once without facing minimum price orders rather than a little here and there and eliminating a lot of time guessing at sizes and why they are needed.

The more expensive "large and small" multi-start tap and die sets are already being offered by Mike Redburn so would not be included in these kits, but just about every other bit and tap that would be required would be.

This would be a fairly sizable investment and my time and money so before doing this I would like to get a feel of how many, if any would be interested in such a kit?

If enough interest is shown, I'll buy the tools, create and print out the instructions then place an ad in the classifieds.
 
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I think it is a great idea! For me though, I am in the midst of ordering bits and pieces and would likely not bennefit from it.

Where would it stop on what is included? Would it include a die holder and tap guide? How about a metric drill bit set? Or collet chuck and collets? All required if you want to get into kitless. Would you get taps for all feed brands or just one?

As the options are so great a good chart/tutorial on what size taps/dies to get for a certain pen size would be great! The information is out there, but finding it isn't easy. The problem might be that some might not agree on which is the correct size.

Good luck! I'll be interested to see what comes out of this.

AK
 
What type of Cost would one be looking at? I ask because if I can afford it I will pick it up now to help you recoup your upfront costs and put it to the side with the rest of the materials I am purchasing for this future endeavor.
I also know zero about what is needed and have not begun to research it yet. Do you have a list of what you expect the kit to include?
 
A little late for me, but a great idea. I'm fairly certain that it would help many people I've seen post comments like, "someday" or "I haven't got to that stage yet" Good thinking George. Must be that mountain air :biggrin:
 
I haven't sat down yet and gone through exactly which taps, dies and drills would be included. As far as the sizes go, I realize everyone has their own ideas, I would be relying on my own experiences of making hundreds of kitless pens of different sizes and types (bulb fillers, button fillers, eye droppers and conventional converters) since early 2008 and all the trial and errors that I went through before finding just the right sizes and thread pitches that work best for me.

Off hand, I'm guessing that there would be around a dozen bits, half a dozen taps and a few dies. I hadn't thought of tap and die handles but I shouldn't assume that everyone already has them so might consider including them as well.

As far as offering everything required to go kitless, I have to draw a line somewhere, else I'll be making a deal with Jet so I can offer their mini-lathes as part of the kit! :wink: Let's just consider this to to be the "drilling and tapping" kit, which is about 80% of making a kitless creation .
 
I would like to add to my previous post. This is an example of the HUGE benefit to being a member in IAP. This offering, if it goes thru, would likely not be a big profit enterprise. It is far more a nice benefit for those who partake. So I hope this works, and thank you George, for putting it out there (here).

Steve Guzy
 
Be Careful

I admire your courage.....

The best advice I can give you is to figure on doing it one time and making up just enough sets to meet the immediate demand and perhaps a few to have in case someone else comes along later. That will be more then enough work.
 
Smitty37 said:
I admire your courage.....

The best advice I can give you is to figure on doing it one time and making up just enough sets to meet the immediate demand and perhaps a few to have in case someone else comes along later. That will be more then enough work.
Click to expand...


I agree, and if the price is w/in my immediate budget I would put the money upfront to help w/ the initial cost.
 
I also think it's a very good idea, especially for those like me that are a bit intimidated but intrigued by kitless pens.
 
Depending on the target price, I'm in as well. I've been trying to pick through posts and figure out exactly what you are proposing. Already have everything else in place.
 
I think it is a great idea! I would be in as well if I hadn't made a few of my recent purchases. That would help immensely because kitless isn't impossible, and if you already have the tools and there is a decent tutorial to follow, anyone could do it!
 
I was thinking about something like this when I first started researching what to get for going kitless. I'm already fairly well outfitted so I don't think I'd be able to buy one.

My idea was instead of offering everything you need to do several shapes and sizes...I think a beginner would benefit from buying a kit that had everything to do one preset size kitless. Like maybe all the parts necessary to make the section from you're tutorial.

This is my thoughts for a starter kit (going from memory on these drill bit sizes):
- Instructions similar to you're section tutorial but include the whole pen...
- 3 sets of 5mm nib/feed/housings
- 3 converters
-3 roller ball clips (the inner diameter of these clips fits perfect over the threads produced from the 9 x 0.75mm tap below)
- "A" size drill bit to go through entire section
- 6.4mm drill bit for converter hole (or supply a 0.252 reamer) :)
- "L" size drill bit for housing
- "P" size drill bit for 8.2mm hole to tap for 9 x 0.75mm section threads
- 12mm die for cap threads (I use triple tap so not sure which standard size pitch to use here)
- 12mm tap for inner cap threads
- 9 x 0.75mm tap for inner body threads to receive section
- 9 x 0.75mm die for exterior section threads
- Tap for 5mm housing threads

You would also need a few drill bits to bore out the cavities inside the cap and body so either provide them or call out standard sizes that would work.
 
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I am right at that point now! If I can afford it I would definitely buy such a kit. I am not interested (at the moment) in making my own nib feeds and would be buying them. If you had a list of who sells what and the sizes it would also help.

Dick
 
I would have loved a super small kit that would make a pen with correct dimensions, etc. I figured it out from reading, asking questions and piecing the puzzle together, but I still feel like I got lucky.

A simple M12 x .75 tap and die for the cap, M9 x .75 tap and die for the section, 8.2mm drill for the barrel, 11.2mm drill for the cap, and whatever drill and tap needs for the section, and I'm good. Now I understand what all the measurements mean and I can intelligently pick tools I need to do what I want going forward.
 
I would love to start making "kitless" pens. I appreciate the technical skill and work in them and if someone put forth the effort to get me started with a "one stop shop" starter kit, I would immediately invest in the required components.

Dave
 
George,
That's a great idea. A list of supplies and tutorial would be perfect for the starter along with which plastics and other materials are good/better/best to use. You may want to just offer that and where all the tools/materials could be found, that way the initial cost to you (taps, dies, tool holders etc.) wouldn't burden you financially. Just a thought.
 
While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens.

Respectfully and sincerely

Justin
 
Good Grief!

I don't understand how trying to help a few members save a few dollars on tools would get others so worked up!

To those expressing interest, I am sorry but after more consideration, this would be a bit much to handle at this time.
 
Hmmmm

Timebandit said:
While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens.

Respectfully and sincerely

Justin
Click to expand...
I'm not really interested in getting into 'kitless' so I don't have any "axe to grind" here Justin, but don't you think maybe that those who are really interested in "rolling their own" will advance from the starter kit and go on to bigger and better things?

I think maybe a lot of guys and gals will have never used a tap & die set in their life among other things - first they want to learn how to do many of the thing you do to make a kitless. Once they've done that they'll learn other methods of doing the same thing.....I think.
 
Smitty37 said:
Timebandit said:
While i think this is an OK idea, i also see some downsides. The main one would be turning "Kitless into a Kit". The whole reason why i started doing component-less was because there werent any kits or instructions. There wasnt anyone telling me to use this tap here and to use this drill bit for this size tap. There was no one telling me what to do and when. My pens are different than everyones on here(not talking about looks, but about the way i make them). Why, because i didnt want to do it just like someone else. I wouldnt have gone this route if there had been "Kitless kits" back then. It would have been a huge turn off for me to just be able to buy the same ol kit that everyone else bought that had the exact same things in it with the exact same instructions. Now i know that some just want to jump in and be able to do it without the trial and error and main learning process of all of this, but i think that is what makes you learn more and really figure it out. If Eagle were here now he would be turning in his shoes. He would tell everyone to go figure it out and then come tell him how YOU did it and maybe you will have a better way then him. Also, il be honest, while i use some of what George uses, i also use others that he doesnt. Eveyone has a different way of doing things and likes to use differnt sizes of diferent things. This kit will set you in one direction. If you want to go another, then you might have some items that you wont use anymore and others that you still have to buy because they werent in this kit. This is not rocket science guys. This stuff is very simple to figure out and ALL of this information is already on IAP, you just have to make an effort to find it. There is also not one way that is set in stone to do this. Different size bits for the same tap, different tenon sizes for the same die. Just like the other day someone was asking why i used certain size bits while someone else used other size bits, and asked which way was the right way. Were both right, there is no right and wrong with this stuff. Its all up to interpretation. Just look at the many kitless tutorials in the IAP Library and you will see just how many different ways people do this. Back when George did his first tutorial, he left out this information for this very purpose, to let you figure out what works for you since there is no one way to do it. Not trying to discourage anyone from participating in this, just giving a different side to it all. I hope that all that are interested in this still go through with it and i look forward to seeing some great pens.

Respectfully and sincerely

Justin
Click to expand...
I'm not really interested in getting into 'kitless' so I don't have any "axe to grind" here Justin, but don't you think maybe that those who are really interested in "rolling their own" will advance from the starter kit and go on to bigger and better things?

I think maybe a lot of guys and gals will have never used a tap & die set in their life among other things - first they want to learn how to do many of the thing you do to make a kitless. Once they've done that they'll learn other methods of doing the same thing.....I think.
Click to expand...

Agreed and i hope that George still does it and that all still participate.
 
I fall into that category of tap and die impaired. I understand the concept and would look to a matched set like this as a jumping off point to get started with enough correct pieces to make a complete pen and then modify to my liking after I understand the mechanics and math around choosing the right drill bit and threading sizes.
 
Texatdurango said:
Good Grief!

I don't understand how trying to help a few members save a few dollars on tools would get others so worked up!

To those expressing interest, I am sorry but after more consideration, this would be a bit much to handle at this time.
Click to expand...
Can't fault you for seeing that - it would be a lot of work for very little return. There seems to be a market but pulling it all together would be a bear of a job.
 
George: I would be interested, except I've already got "everything" I need, until I get up in the morning. Seriously, with what I have from R/C days as well as what I've bought since getting involved with pens, I don't think it would be a benefit to me, but for someone just going into kitless!!! WOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Do it if it's feasible.
 
I still want to get one!!!! (and I am sure a lot of others would as well).

How about one tap and die for the cap, and on die for the feed, + 3 feeds (front sections).

I get to expand my skills.
I get to give you money.
I get to make stuff I couldn't before.

I am sorry this ended this way!!!

Dick
 
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It has not ended yet, I have talked to Indy Pen Dance and they will put together a kit if George Decides not to at this point. They are at a pen convention and will keep in touch as they can.
 
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