Interesting article

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Doghouse

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I heard about this and looked it up.

You can agree or disagree, but please do not start a fight about it here.

Very interesting reading. Arizona is looking to institute a law that would prevent professors from discussing legal or political views. This could be interpreted to mean that if they wanted to teach how slavery was ended in America and why, they would also have to teach why slavery is good! WOW! You all know how lawyers love to stretch how laws are written!

http://insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/19/ariz
 
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I think you may have taken the interpretation a little too far. I don't think there are very many people out there that believe that slavery was good. My daughter goes to ASU and her English professor is always bashing the Iraq war along with President Bush. The professor gave an assignment for the students to write an article on the Iraq war. Well my daughter wrote one on why she felt we were doing the right thing stating the many reasons for doing what we are doing over there. The professor gave it back and said, "This is not what I want." "I want an article on why we should not be in Iraq." My daughter told the professor, that that is not what was asked for. The professor then told her to change the article or get a zero. My daughter asked if the class would be doing an article on the opposing view and the answer was "Not in my lifetime." My daughter had to change her article for the sake of a better grade. She said she would never do it again. This is verging on brain washing. When my son got into the conversation, he said he dealt with the same thing at college. It seems like many professors don't really care about your views, they just want to spread their view.
 
John,

The link was truly amazing! Some have typified college professors as being on the liberal side of the political spectrum. This may have been an attempt to bring equality in political opinions to the campus, but it is incredibly misguided in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing this. It is interesting to see how others think, even if you disagree with them.
 
Insane doesn't come close to describing this idea. Purely unconstitutional. Censorship in it's rawest form. If passed, it would make professors second-class citizens. I'm not happy with the liberal slant of many in academia today but muzzling teachers is not the right approach either.
 
Tim, I am taking the interpretation of the law to the level that a lawyer will take it to. Intended result or not that is how the law is written. Look at the receint interpretations of church & state.

William, Frank, While we disagree in our political views, it is nice to see that we agree that this is an insane law! I do not see how it could stand up to constitutional challanges.
 
While I agree that this is a BAD idea, I have to disagree with Frank's assessment that it would be "muzzling" teachers.

From what I read it prevents them from putting forward their opinions while in the classroom or on campus.

would ban professors at public colleges and universities, while working, from:


- Endorsing, supporting or opposing any candidate for local, state or national office.
- Endorsing, supporting or opposing any pending legislation, regulation or rule under consideration by local, state or federal agencies.
- Endorsing, supporting or opposing any litigation in any court.
- Advocating “one side of a social, political, or cultural issue that is a matter of partisan controversy.â€
- Hindering military recruiting on campus or endorsing the activities of those who do.


This is assinine if you are talking about something like a philosophy or political science class. I can see where it could apply to a math or english teacher.

Things of this nature are in place in our military now. There are MANY things that can not be done while in uniform or representing the military.
 
As I do not agree with what this bill is, I do understand why someone would present it. Tim has given a perfect example. Professors are supposed to present facts, scenarios and teachings. The student needs to be able to form their own opinion without bias from a teacher. Professors really shouldn't teach/represent their own opinions unless asked by student, then should stress student base their own opinion/idea on what he/she has learned. I guess what I'm trying to say is what my Dad the professor always said, "we are there to present, not represent."

This is my most respectful, humble opinion.
 
I doubt it would ever hold up even to the first challenge. I can see not being able to use the position to advance a political candidate, but when they include court cases and other proposed laws, it goes way past common sense and violated free speech. One can only imagine how bogged down some cop will be when people who don't like a teacher start making complaints that they may have said a certain thing.
 
This bill will never make it through. I am often appalled at hearing the steps some professors and others that are put into a position of authority with a captive audience will take to push there political views, often while completely stifling the views of the student. Heaven forbid that someone in there class should differ from them in their political views! I think that a professor should be able to state his political views if it's in the interest or related to the topic at hand. When a professor uses his/her position to FORCE students into doing something that they morally disagree with just to KEEP A GRADE, it's reprehensible. A professor that does this is literally holding this student's future hostage until that student comes around to their way of thinking or at least makes the professor think that they have won. It's sickening, regardless of whether the professor leans liberal, or conservative (yeah, fat chance, lol.)
 
I don't really have an opinion on the article itself. However, I have run into the same type of things that Tanner's children have. Luckily, I was attending at night as a working adult. When told my paper did not meet the professor's political agenda and would earn my a zero - I replied that, if it did, we would soon see who had access to the better set of lawyers. I asked him if he really believed he had the university's backing. He looked at me standing there in my Winter Dress Blues and took my paper. Not the highest grade I ever got but there are trade offs everywhere.
 
Let's not draw conclusions about ALL academicians based upon an unfortunate experience with one professor.

Having been a university professor since 1978, I will react to this issue the same way I would deal with the war in Iraq in my classes. "Let's all step back, take a deep breath, and then try to separate the facts from opinions. Then, after researching the topic on your own, come to class prepared to discuss the facts. After that, each of you is welcome to voice his/her opinion in a forthright, honest manner, while RESPECTING the opinions of others."

My personal views and opinions are neither here nor there. I'll keep my personal opinions to myself and express them outside of the university classroom.

My students DO NOT take my classes to hear my opinion. They take classes to learn how to think independently, based on facts.
 
Gee Al, do you have any open classes?[:D] I'm sure there are a lot of professors out there like Al. I'm hoping.[:0] I think it's somewhere around the 75% mark for professors that are liberal. In the elite colleges I believe it's pushing 90% liberal. I just want my kids making a decision after they have heard both sides. Like Al said "Take classes to learn how to think independently, based on facts."
 
I wish there were more professors with your attitude. Its been quite a number of years since college but I can remember being preached at almost as much educated. When I see younger people entering the work place that have not been taught to think for themselves or reason out a problem before seeking assistance it infuriates me. I'll shut before I start ranting, Its a sore subject with me.
 
Originally posted by Tanner
<br />Gee Al, do you have any open classes?[:D] I'm sure there are a lot of professors out there like Al. I'm hoping.[:0] I think it's somewhere around the 75% mark for professors that are liberal. In the elite colleges I believe it's pushing 90% liberal. I just want my kids making a decision after they have heard both sides. Like Al said "Take classes to learn how to think independently, based on facts."
Hmmmmmm I didn't say anything about whether I was a Liberal, Conservative, Socialist, Communist, Libertarian, Independent, or whatever. That's the point. My students don't need to know where I stand politically. Nor should your sons or daughters know what their professors' political beliefs are.[;)]
 
Bravo, Al!!

That is an excellent point. Although college professors have a reputation for being more liberal than conservative, the opposite end of the spectrum can be problematic as well.

I went to college at a small school tied to a Protestant denomination. Over the last few years the administration has been dominated by those who are of the extremely conservative wing of this particular denomination. Professors have to have texts and reading lists approved, and have to sign a pledge to teach within the limits approved by the administration. Several outstanding educators have left to continue their careers at a less repressive instituiton, and the accreditation of the college has been on shaky grounds.

I find it sad that those of the far right and the far left seem unable to communicate with each other.

I do not know the political views of John who started this thread, nor do I know the views of my friend Al. That does not matter to me. I prefer communication over dogma any day.
 
Originally posted by Tanner
<br />My daughter goes to ASU and her English professor is always bashing the Iraq war along with President Bush. The professor gave an assignment for the students to write an article on the Iraq war. Well my daughter wrote one on why she felt we were doing the right thing stating the many reasons for doing what we are doing over there. The professor gave it back and said, "This is not what I want." "I want an article on why we should not be in Iraq." My daughter told the professor, that that is not what was asked for. The professor then told her to change the article or get a zero. My daughter asked if the class would be doing an article on the opposing view and the answer was "Not in my lifetime." My daughter had to change her article for the sake of a better grade. She said she would never do it again. This is verging on brain washing. When my son got into the conversation, he said he dealt with the same thing at college. It seems like many professors don't really care about your views, they just want to spread their view.

Maybe a hugely unfair generralization????

There are some idiots teaching at the university level. There are also some would-be scholars who like to say they are "teaching" at the university level. The entire point of taking a class that is writing intensive is one that requires a student to research, requires a student to organize thoughts and opinions, requires students to develop high level writing skills, and, above all else, teaches CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS. The professor you describe in your post is not really teaching any of these things - except, perhaps, writing skills.

The only way to approach such a paper would be to research heavily what others say - present those arguments as clearly and precisely as possible without agreeing with them (in other words - reporting from an objective viewpoint), and concluding with varying points of view.

If my kid went to a university and was given this kind of assignment, I would be contacting the Provost, Dean, and President of the university to express politely and clearly that academic freedom stops when when it takes away freedom of thinking from others.

Best,
Roger Garrett
Who teaches at a nationally known Liberal Arts University
 
Cav,

You just got caught bein' OLD, my friend. Even I understood "word".



DocStram,
Could you continue to teach about another 50 years? Only LIMIT your class to other teaching professionals?
It's so refreshing - you haven't referred to the union or your contract once!!!!
You CAN'T be from Wisconsin!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't care if we agree or not, DISCUSSION of a point IS EDUCATION.
 
Roger,

We typed simultaneously. Ditto my thoughts with Al.[:D][:D][:D]

BTW, my son's college experience is, thankfully, behind us. Yes, he is degreed. And I did not damage any instructors in the process (physically)
 
Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />BTW, my son's college experience is, thankfully, behind us. Yes, he is degreed. And I did not damage any instructors in the process (physically)

My son will begin next year.

Regarding damaging other instructors - sometimes it is interesting to watch my colleagues on campus. Most are very good. Once in awhile it gets entertaining - especially if students get upset.

But that discussion is for another thread!

Best,
Roger
 
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