I need your input...

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grub32

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Jan 1, 2008
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Ohio, USA.
The attached picture is the coming together of my new shop. I just included a pic of the drill press and lathe stand area. Basically, the issue that I have is what's in the background. I have a pole building and as you can see, there are large 6 x 6 posts and then 2x4's that span the rest of the way. OSB is attached to the 2x4s from the outside and siding.

I want to be able to add cabinets, shelves and misc. storage. I was thinking about filling the gaps btwn the 2x4's with some of the foam insulation board and then covering it with OSB or drywall. What do you guys think about that? The insulation is most important...Being in Ohio and I want to be able to contain the heat once I start generating some in the winter.

The other option is NOT covering up the insulation(saves big money) and just attach some vertical bracing to help support the add on storage.

I am struggling with this...Any ideas or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Grub32
 

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You're going to need something for insulation. Even if you just put up insulation and nothing over it if you are trying to save money.
 
If this is a shop that is enclosed year round with no venting then I would insulate. I would check on the use of that foam board. Some areas won't allow that as insulation. Fire rating or something. Why not fiberglass batting.
 
Well the space available is only the thickness of the 2x4 so I dont know how well they will work since they are nominally 3.5 inches thick...That is why I was thinking about sheets of insulation...I will just have to check on fire code.

Grub32
 
When I started my shop construction I pondered the same thing you are. For some reason or another - maybe I was holding my mouth just right or something - I decided to use 2" closed cell styrofoam for insulation. I made myself a hot wire cutter and custom cut all the panels from roofing panels that I could get from a local supplier.

BOY AM I GLAD I DID. It has made all the difference you could possibly imagine. I even put the panels in the ceiling. I also added a sheet of Tyvek house wrap on the inside of the ceiling rafters and now there is way less heat loss. I use a kerosene heater like you would find at a job site - burns like a jet engine - and the danged thing will run me out if I don't turn it off in short order.

Maybe if you just insulated between the wall 2x4's and used either house wrap or a sheeting of good quality plastic you could obtain the same results and be warm as a bug in a rug in the winter. It is also cooler in the summer as heat doesn't infiltrate from the roof quite as easy. Best of luck on your decision(s). :biggrin:
 
Check out spay foaming.........total coverage and it will also act as a vapor barrier.....no cold air sneaking in or hot leaking through during the winter. (not talking about the canned stuff either.....)


Barney
 
I agree with Barney, be sure to check out the spray foam. It almost totally insures there will be no holes or gaps allowing air infiltration! Also, I would seriously consider putting either OSB, plywood, or even drywall over the insulation. You want to make sure you can paint the inside white or near white to help with your lighting. Some shops that are left unpainted or are dark colored, require added light sources to get to a decent level to avoid eye strain.

Also, if you just added backer boards where you are proposing to hang stuff now, you will be adding more and more later as you change and redesign or acquire more stuff or more patterns and things. If you must rearrange your backer boards each time, or add more, the cost will sonn be more than what the OSB would have cost to start with.

You might want to think about using french cleats to hang a lot of your stuff. This will give you flexibility to change things around a lot easier.

Thats just my opinion.
By the way, my shop is converted welding shop that had a tin exterior on angle iron pearlings with 3" pipe columns and angle iron trusses. I have installed 2x4, insulation, and covered with plywood, painted everything white, used french cleats to hang my cabinets and displays on, and couldn't be happier.
 
The literature suggests that you are looking for several things that people have commented upon --

Insulation (keeping temperatures warm in winter and not so hot in the summer)

Air infiltration/exfiltration (related to keeping temperature where you want it, but not the same as insulation)

Moisture control -- especially condensation from warm interior/cold exterior but also from cool inside and warm/moist outside. This is important from the perspective of rot, termites, and carpenter ants.

Fire risk -- what burns and how can it spread.

Strength and flexibility for future actions (and protection of insulation from damage.


The use of sheathing on the interior will add rigidity to the walls, though a pole structure (form of frame and panel) generally do not need the strength for shear as would be needed in a load carrying wall. Plywood/OSB will give you more strength and flexibility and with a fire retardant paint, can mitigate the flame spread risk. Fire retardant paints are more expensive than plain paint, but do allow better protection and your insurance company is your partner here.

Insulation and vapor barrier boil down to local costs and availability. The vapor barrier is important as it deals with moisture and air movement when done correctly. That also suggests that you are going to have air handling associate with your dust collection and filtration. Note that you will also want good sheathing inside to protect the insulation and vapor barrier from incidental damage.


Remember the rule that seem to still work Good -- Fast -- Cheap -- Pick any two of the three.

Welcome to the land of sweat equity -- and use of time instead of money.
 
My building is the same type of construction. I went to the lumber yard and bought a whole truckload of reject construction lumber..warped/cracked or muddy returns of 2x4's through 2x16's. Only cost me $200 for a pile bigger than the entire size of my pickup truck. I sorted out the really bad stuff. I ripped all the wide stuff into 2x6's. I used pressure treated for a footer. I built a frame to go inbetween the posts, BUT, the frame has no top header, just the PT footer and verticle 2x6 or 2x4 if that's what was left going straight up every 16". The top of the frame walls was simply nailed to the already existing headers up top. You don't need sides on your frame either because the posts take that job. The new walls allowed for electrical to be installed wherever I wanted it. I installed the wiring, then I also installed some 4" pvc inside the walls and an elbow to exit the wall. This is the dust collection system. It goes in the wall, up into the ceiling and across, then down in the wall to where the dust collector is. A 4" pipe fits nice n easy in a pole barn. After having that all worked out, I installed the drywall on the walls, not the ceiling. I bought a couple pallets of blow in insulation at menards and the machine comes free for the day. Using my ladder, I walked around the shop with the hose, and blew in all the walls..cause remember the tops are wide open! blown insulation is great, it's cheap, fireproof, and it gets into every little nook and cranny in the walls. It will settle about 6-8" over a week or so. That's no problem. With the walls done, install baffles to protect your soffits from insulation...it's best that you do this before you drywall the ceiling. Drywall the ceiling then go back get more insulation and blower again. Blow in the ceiling...when you do that, the top 6-8 of the walls that settled will be topped off.
It doesn't matter what tools you have now, or if you don't have a dust collector. Pre-plan for the future, what you want and where will it go.
Here's some shop photo's. Built my shop all myself, although I contracted out the structural installation of the poles and roof..that's a bit much for one man to do. Look carefully and you'll see how the ports go right in the wall. There are no pipes looking ugly in the shop, taking up un-necessary space and collecting more dust.
 

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Being that you are in Ohio, your weather is similar to mine. I don't know your codes, but here you have to have tyvek on a house, but not on a barn, and Tyvek is being discussed to be removed from code. Tyvek is on the way out because Tyvek does more damage than good, especially in the northern states. It has been discovered that over time, Tyvek deteriorates and thus becomes useless. But, this is a good thing, because Tyvek prevents your house from breathing. the house becomes too tight. Many homes have been discovered to be breathing through the carpet introducing all kinds of molds and bacteria into the home, because the house is so tight it backdrafts down the wall and out through the bottom of the drywall. Tyvek can allow for moisture to be trapped in the walls. Tyvek is supposed to be a moisture barrier but we all know the moisture barrier goes on what side of the house??? Maybe you say cold, maybe you say warm! Here, we have 6 months of cold, and 6 months of warm, so what side does it go on? In the winter time, the inside is the warm side, but Tyvek is on the outside and as moisture escapes the walls it hits the cold Tyvek and causes a water lock in contact with your OSB. So moisture barrier on the outside is no good. If there is no Tyvek, then air can penetrate and moisture that is inevidable to occur somewhere, will be able to be dried. In the summer, well we A/C our house and the heat and humidity outside is pretty bad. Now the Moisture barrier in the house is on the inside, the moisture though is occurring on the inside causing the insulation to get wet and then moldy. Unless we're talking about a bathroom, all moisture barriers appear to be on the way out, at least up here.
 
Like the RBI there Jeff. I have 2 of my own. A 26" and 20" You do know they just went out of business right???? What a shame. One of the best scrollsaws on the market and a USA made product. Supposibly later this spring they are going to have a clearence sale. I was hoping they still have parts available through someone.
 
They will. I sent out a bunch of parts to a person that specializes in making scrollsaw parts and he will start carrying Hawk G4 parts, and has already some 220 parts. his parts will be better than the original parts too, so if you run in a clinch, let me know and I'll let you know where to go. There's already people lining up for him to make these parts. Once we have them, we shouldn't need to buy them again this time! The RBI parts are not so good. Saw is great and good quality, but some of the parts are not.
 
grub32 said:
Well the space available is only the thickness of the 2x4 so I dont know how well they will work since they are nominally 3.5 inches thick...That is why I was thinking about sheets of insulation...I will just have to check on fire code.

Grub32
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That will let you use R11 and I think the Foam I've found is on;y R3 or R5, I'm building a polebarn shop this summer, Same problems, But if you can find a liquidator by all means use OSB for the inside, Or put up the OSB and use Blow in Cellulose from Lowes, they let you borrow the blower, it'll get you to about R15 and it's a lot cheaper than fiberglasss, use a vapor barier on both sides of the inside and the inside of the outer wall
 
workinforwood said:
They will. I sent out a bunch of parts to a person that specializes in making scrollsaw parts and he will start carrying Hawk G4 parts, and has already some 220 parts. his parts will be better than the original parts too, so if you run in a clinch, let me know and I'll let you know where to go. There's already people lining up for him to make these parts. Once we have them, we shouldn't need to buy them again this time! The RBI parts are not so good. Saw is great and good quality, but some of the parts are not.
Click to expand...

I will be looking for the clip that holds the lower blade clamp up and also the quick tension arm on both saws. Hopefully these are 2 parts he works on. I made a metal clip to replace that plastic one that gets stretched out to fast. Good to hear parts will be available because to me I will never sell these saws. They have alot of milage on them and still going strong.
 
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