Help! Is there an Electrician in the house???

[opfoto]

Just trying to score points with SWMBO....

We have an switched indicator light to the attic. Wanted to switch it out for a color change....almond to white.

The box has 4 wires...
on one side white wire and green wire going into the back of old switch in one hole....

on the other side black wire going into one hole on top then green wire going to the other hole on bottom.....
NO screws!

New switch is a Levitron:
4 screws including the green ground screw.
On 1 side a black screw.....on the back it is labeled common.
On the other side a brass screw..... then a silver screw under it...

Here is my take on it....

I am assuming the green is commom....so I think Black wire goes to brass screw....The green wire from the same side goes to the silver screw.

Then twist the white wire to the other green wire with another wire and put it on the black screw.

The box is not grounded there is no "normal ground wire" (There are no bare copper wires in the box)

Can someone help me decipher this and I will send you any extra points I score that I won't be using anytime soon :wink:
Thanks everyone....

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Maybe pictures would help prospective electricians figure it out for you...

 

[Displaced Canadian]

What does the switch control and is there more than one switch for the system. If a switch has a "common" terminal it is usually a 3 way switch. How old is the house and is the wiring as old as the house?

 

[bad]

Displaced Canadian beat me to it. It does sound like a 3 way switch.

 

[gketell]

Even a 3-way shouldn't have two greens and certainly they shouldn't be connected to the same connectors as black and white.

In general, on a single-way switch, black goes to brass screw, white goes to silver screw, green goes to green screw (or "frame"). Black+white or black+green is a recipe for disaster. (melted wires, fire, etc). White+green, while not dangerous, is not a conventional configuration and will screw up any GFCI outlets on that set of wires.

If this switch is the only one that controls this light then it should be a single-way switch, not a three way. In that case the correct way to wire this would be to run black to brass screw, white to silver screw, two greens together to green screw.

 

[DCBluesman]

Almost any situation in U.S. household current can be found here.

 

[bad]

Even a 3-way shouldn't have two greens and certainly they shouldn't be connected to the same connectors as black and white.

In general, on a single-way switch, black goes to brass screw, white goes to silver screw, green goes to green screw (or "frame"). Black+white or black+green is a recipe for disaster. (melted wires, fire, etc). White+green, while not dangerous, is not a conventional configuration and will screw up any GFCI outlets on that set of wires.

If this switch is the only one that controls this light then it should be a single-way switch, not a three way. In that case the correct way to wire this would be to run black to brass screw, white to silver screw, two greens together to green screw.

Actually, I had a very similar conversation with one of the electricians I work with. He was telling me a lot of electricians will intentionally use different color wires. This makes it more difficult for another electrician to do work at the same site later. It also increases their chance of keeping that particular customer.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

The switch he bought is most likely a 3 way switch. Before we can explain to him how to wire it we need more info.

Right off I don't think the colors of the wire indicate what they are doing.

Info needed, how many lights and how many switches control those lights. Do any of the green or white wires have any black tape on them?

 

[gketell]

Actually if they get caught doing it they can lose their license. The colors and standards are all defined in the National codes. Going against those codes is a good way to be permanently unemployed.

But, it does mean you need to use meters to figure out what wire is what when you run across something non-standard. I had one house where they had done "non-standard" wiring and to kill one light you had to turn off two different circuit breakers. Yup, they had managed to wire the black from two breakers together somewhere. Very deadly setup.

GK

Even a 3-way shouldn't have two greens and certainly they shouldn't be connected to the same connectors as black and white.

In general, on a single-way switch, black goes to brass screw, white goes to silver screw, green goes to green screw (or "frame"). Black+white or black+green is a recipe for disaster. (melted wires, fire, etc). White+green, while not dangerous, is not a conventional configuration and will screw up any GFCI outlets on that set of wires.

If this switch is the only one that controls this light then it should be a single-way switch, not a three way. In that case the correct way to wire this would be to run black to brass screw, white to silver screw, two greens together to green screw.

Actually, I had a very similar conversation with one of the electricians I work with. He was telling me a lot of electricians will intentionally use different color wires. This makes it more difficult for another electrician to do work at the same site later. It also increases their chance of keeping that particular customer.

 

[lorbay]

Green is always Ground or Bond wire and should not be used to wire onto the switch terminals (unless) there is a green screw attached to the device which is tied to the metal frame that holds the whole device together. Was there 3 terminals on the old switch?? it sound like they used a 3 way switch to start with and kept adding wire till it worked. Pictures will tell the whole story inside the box and the old switch.

Lin.

 

[opfoto]

Thanks for all the responses.....This is the only switch that controls the lights (2) for the attic. There is no other switch for those lights. There is NO GFCI on this circuit although there is other outlets shared on this breaker. I will post some pix in the am.

 

[bgibb42]

Can someone help me decipher this and I will send you any extra points I score that I won't be using anytime soon :wink:
Thanks everyone....

No disrespect intended, but...

I am a professional electrician (mostly commercial). My advice to you--go hire a qualified electrician. Seriously. Based on your description, you really need to have someone come out and decipher the mess in your switch box. Gketell is correct about the colors being standardized. In the NEC, green is reserved exclusively as the ground wire. No exceptions. White, gray, or any variations of those colors is reserved as a neutral (grounded conductor). But beware, white wires found in wire Type NM-B (Romex) are ocassionally used for switching. When used for that purpose, they are SUPPOSED to be recolored, either with tape or markers to indicate they are a current carrying conductor. That doesn't mean that they will be though.

Electrical work, and especially household voltages of 120V can be VERY dangerous. Some things aren't worth the risk if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[PenMan1]

Brian.
Before you hook anything together, get yourself a multimeter. You can get one at any big box retail store for about the price of the switch you bought.

Additionally, if the switch only controls one light, flip off that breaker and investigate the light fixture wiring. The attic light may have been an "after thought" and retrofitted.

When retrofitting, many electricians choose to pull I
individual stranded wires because they are easier to "fish" through existing walls, etc.

The answer may well be as simple as looking inside the lighting fixtures wiring box.

 

[PenMan1]

I would almost bet that this is a three way circuit with another switch located in the attic.

 

[jttheclockman]

Just trying to score points with SWMBO....

We have an switched indicator light to the attic. Wanted to switch it out for a color change....almond to white.

The box has 4 wires...
on one side white wire and green wire going into the back of old switch in one hole....

on the other side black wire going into one hole on top then green wire going to the other hole on bottom.....
NO screws!

New switch is a Levitron:
4 screws including the green ground screw.
On 1 side a black screw.....on the back it is labeled common.
On the other side a brass screw..... then a silver screw under it...

Here is my take on it....

I am assuming the green is commom....so I think Black wire goes to brass screw....The green wire from the same side goes to the silver screw.

Then twist the white wire to the other green wire with another wire and put it on the black screw.

The box is not grounded there is no "normal ground wire" (There are no bare copper wires in the box)

Can someone help me decipher this and I will send you any extra points I score that I won't be using anytime soon :wink:
Thanks everyone....

Hello Marc

I am always amazed when people try to do their own electrical work but when in trouble come to a web site to ask questions. The problem with that is twofold. Usually and this is the case here the person asking is not supplying enough info. Second is you will probably get many different answers and how do you know which one to choose. I always find it hard to answer electrical questions for laymen because there are things that get left out only because I and any other electrician do these things because to us they are common sense.

If you are intent on doing this you need to supply us with more info.

Example: you made the statement that you have a "switched indicator light" to the attic. What this tells me is you have a switch downstairs from the attic that has an indicator light or (pilot light which tells you that the light is on in the attic).on it and this swith controls an attic light.

Next you tell us there are four wires in the box: are all the wires coming out of one cable or are ther 2 cables with 2 wires apiece???

Next: you say you bought a switch that has 4 terminals and to me it is a 3way switch and to verify this there should be no on and off written on the toggle of the switch. Need to verify that.

Next: the same question applies for the existing switch. Is there an on and off written on the switch and is there a pilot light on it???

Next the wires you call green are they taped green or are they the natural color used in the cable green???

Finally a picture is worth 1000 words

I underline this part you ARE DOING THIS ALL WITH THE POWER OFF!!! Right???

 

[Rick_G]

Marc, I agree with Brian. Get an electrician they won't charge much to do one switch. I've been an aircraft and industrial electrician for 43 years and a licenced industrial electrician for 22 years. When it comes to electricity what you don't know CAN hurt you or someone you love.

Someone has obviously wired this switch not to standard code and without a meter and being there in person I would not attempt to tell you what is going on.

 

[bgibb42]

Brian.
Before you hook anything together, get yourself a multimeter.

Not sure if you're talking to me or not, but I own a meter. Several, actually. Multimeters, ammeters, even a phase checker. Don't own my own Meg-ohmeter though, but sure would be nice to have!

 

[PenMan1]

Oops! Sorry Brian. I thought the OPs name was Brian also. I agree on the Megometer! Most of my work is low-voltage or voice and data, so I really have no use for one other than "bragging" rights.

 

[Smitty37]

My bet is that there's anothe switch somewhere and someone used the wrong color wire to hook it up. One wire should have black, Red, white and green (or bare wire), the other should have black white and green(or bare wire).....the green (or bare) wires all should end up hooked to the green wire on the switch....if they aren't you'd best find an electrician because someone used the ground wire as a conductor...bad.

 

[opfoto]

update....

Sorry for the delay (life got in the way)
So to those still interested.....
to try and answer the questions in no specific order:
The house is approx 50 years old.
Both switches have pilot lights. -photos 1&5
Both switches have on/off labels on them.- photos 1&5
It is the only switch for the attic lights 2 ceramic/porcelein fixture with 60 watts each bulb.
It is on 1 breaker which is Switched OFF and no power confirmed at the wires.
There are no bare copper wires i would consider as ground in this metal box. photo3
There are 3 holes for wires on the back of old switch. No screws to attach wires to. -photo3
There are 4 screws to hook wires to on the new switch. -photo4

There are 3 legs of wires I'll label as follows:

Top leg- White and black going up to the attic lights.
Left leg- a group of white wires and 1 green coated heavier gauge wire wire nutted together.
The white wire from the top leg and this green wire from the left leg go into the same hole in the back of the old switch.
Right leg- a group of Black wires wirenutted with a larger gauge green wire.
The black wire from top leg goes into top hole position on back of switch.
The green wire goes into the bottom hole position on switch.

It appears as though for some reason whoever wired this used green wires instead of using a piece of white or black to go from the wirenuts to the switch.

The pix are as follows:
From left -New switch front, new switch rear, wired 1, wired 2, old switch front.
Hope this helps clear some of the confusion

as you can see there is NO ground wire attached to the old switch, I can run a bare copper wire to the green screw and to the back of the metal box without a problem.
Thanks for your patience and help.

 

[Smitty37]

Yup

Sorry for the delay (life got in the way)
So to those still interested.....
to try and answer the questions in no specific order:
The house is approx 50 years old.
Both switches have pilot lights.
Both switches have on/off labels on them.
It is the only switch for the attic lights 2 ceramic/porcelein fixture with 60 watts each bulb.
It is on 1 breaker which is Switched OFF and no power confirmed at the wires.
There are no bare copper wires i would consider as ground in this metal box.
There are 3 holes for wires on the back of old switch. No screws to attach wires to.
There are 4 screws to hook wires to on the new switch.

There are 3 legs of wires I'll label as follows:

Top leg- White and black going up to the attic lights. White should be neutral Black should be hot.
Left leg- a group of white wires and 1 green coated heavier gauge wire wire nutted together. Neutral feed.

The white wire from the top leg and this green wire from the left leg go into the same hole in the back of the old switch. Neutral connection on the switch
Right leg- a group of Black wires wirenutted with a larger gauge green wire. Hot feed
The black wire from top leg goes into top hole position on back of switch.
The green wire goes into the bottom hole position on switch.

It appears as though for some reason whoever wired this used green wires instead of using a piece of white or black to go from the wirenuts to the switch. Called pigtails used so the wire nutted bundles can be moved to make room for the switch.
I have pix but I need to resize then upload

I will do that now. and edit this post to add them
Thanks for your patience and help.

If you don't have bare wire ground connected to the metal box itself and the green nut on the switch, you need to get a knowledgeable electrician. While that arrangement might be ok for years -- it is definately not up to current safety standards.

If you insist of DIY : What they did was jerry rig a three-way switch to operate as a two-way., Do not get the same kind of switch. Replace it with an ordinary two-way, which is all you need and will be cheaper than a three-way anyhow..

On a two-way the white wire (neutral) coming in by way of the green pig-tail should connect directly to the white wire going to the light and should bypass the switch.

The black wire (hot) via the green pigtail should connect to one side of the switch and the black wire to the light connects to the other side of the switch.

Still, since you don't have the bare wire grounds in anywhere, if your half-smart you'll get an electrician to take care of that.

I've done a lot of wiring in my life time and for at least since the mid 60's years bare wire grounds have been required....unless the wire is BX (armored) and I think it's been required there for at least 30 years.

 

[jttheclockman]

You have a piloted lighted switch in both cases thus the need for the neutral wire to the switch with these type switches. There are others that do not require a neutral but being you have this and it matches what you got just wire it the same way. ( white and neutral goes to silver screw)Smitty labeled the wires correctly in his post.( Hot goes to the discolored or black screw) The black wire going to the attic light goes to the brass screw))Hopefully this is not a knob and tube wire system and if not then there should be a ground to the box through the bx. They did not have green wires in old bx and the ground is relied on by the jacket of the cable. If you have a meter you can check this by taking a reading between the hot wire and the side of the box. If you get a light (depending on your meter) or a voltage reading then there is a ground available. You can take a small piece of green wire from the box to the green screw on the switch. If you do not do this then the only ground to this switch is aquired through the mounting screw because it has that grounding clip on one of the screws.

Hope this helps.

PS: if there is no way to put the 2 white neutral wires on the silver terminal you can place the white neutral wire going to the attic under the same wirenut as the wire used for the( green ) for the neutral feed. That wire can be changed to a smaller white wire (#14 guage), this will help fit all the wires under the wirenut better.

Boy I would really let an electrician cleaned this up for you. Good luck.