Gouge size and log rolling

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bradleyheathhays

bradleyheathhays

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Thought I'd get my moneys worth out of this one and ask two questions in one thread.

I'm about to start turning bowls and need to purchase another carving tool or two. Right now I've got one of the typical inexpensive 3 piece carbide sets off Amazon (pictured below w/o inserts) and from the videos I've been watching I'm gonna need a regular HSS bowl gouge and parting tool, and I'm wondering what size of each of these I'll need. I believe the size parting tool I've seen is described as 3/16"? so I suppose that's the size I'll order. And so far as the gouge goes I've seen them (in videos) in a number of different sizes. The turner I watch the most uses a 5/8" gouge but I'm wondering if that's gonna be too large to start off with. Since I'm just starting out my main concern is not doing anything quickly so if the only advantage of the larger 5/8" gouge is speed then I could probably do without it. Also, I've seen examples of dovetails being made in tenons with much smaller gouges, which is something I prob need to consider. Is there a middle size gouge that would do well for general bowl turning and tenon dove tails? What size parting tool and gouge would be best? Trying to save $ so if 1 gouge will do instead of 2 different sizes then that would make my day.

and...

I'm sourcing locally felled trees and have come across a really big log I can't get through with my 14" chain saw without being able to rotate is to get the bottom of the cut. My best idea is to get a log moving/rotating tool I've only seen in videos. Not sure what it's called but it's about a 5-6' long pole with a large hook attached about 1.5' from the end. Hook the log then turn it with leverage. What are these things called and what's the cheapest place to get one?

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bradleyheathhays said:
Thought I'd get my moneys worth out of this one and ask two questions in one thread.

I'm about to start turning bowls and need to purchase another carving tool or two. Right now I've got one of the typical inexpensive 3 piece carbide sets off Amazon (pictured below w/o inserts) and from the videos I've been watching I'm gonna need a regular HSS bowl gouge and parting tool, and I'm wondering what size of each of these I'll need. I believe the size parting tool I've seen is described as 3/16"? so I suppose that's the size I'll order. And so far as the gouge goes I've seen them (in videos) in a number of different sizes. The turner I watch the most uses a 5/8" gouge but I'm wondering if that's gonna be too large to start off with. Since I'm just starting out my main concern is not doing anything quickly so if the only advantage of the larger 5/8" gouge is speed then I could probably do without it. Also, I've seen examples of dovetails being made in tenons with much smaller gouges, which is something I prob need to consider. Is there a middle size gouge that would do well for general bowl turning and tenon dove tails? What size parting tool and gouge would be best? Trying to save $ so if 1 gouge will do instead of 2 different sizes then that would make my day.

and...

I'm sourcing locally felled trees and have come across a really big log I can't get through with my 14" chain saw without being able to rotate is to get the bottom of the cut. My best idea is to get a log moving/rotating tool I've only seen in videos. Not sure what it's called but it's about a 5-6' long pole with a large hook attached about 1.5' from the end. Hook the log then turn it with leverage. What are these things called and what's the cheapest place to get one?

View attachment 314993
Click to expand...
I would start with 1/2 bowl gouge like a Robert Sorby M2- HSS and a Henry Taylor Narrow Parting tools which case be got at Craft Supplies USA, For your log roller Lowes see attached photo.
 

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I can't help you on the log rolling device... I usually just kick the log over with my foot if I need to get to the bottom... I have a 16" bar on my Stihl, and so far hasn't been an issue.

On the turning tools, I'm going to go against my friends here as to brand name... I turn almost all of my bowls with a Hurricane 5/8" bowl gouge... matter of fact, this is my go to tool for majority of my turning.... prices have changed some since I bought last tools, but I got all three of their bowl gouges for the price of one Sorby.... Sorby does make a good tool and I have used one at a friends house, but I didn't feel that my turning was any better than my Hurricane.... I actually started with Benjamin's Best from PSI, but prefer the Hurricane's now.... they are good HHS and hold their edge pretty well....I use a 3/8", 1/2" and the 5/8" most of the time.... I do have a set of the carbides, home made, that work okay but they are primarily scrapers and I mostly use them that way, although a number of turners are starting to use the as primary bowl tools.... take a look at the Hurricane's and see if they will suit you needs... keep in mind that I am of Scotch/Irish descent and tend to stay as close to my money as I can.

Another tool you will need if you don't already have one is a good sharpening system. The Hurricane will hold an edge pretty well, but you need to be able to put a good edge on the tool.... I use a slow speed grinder with an 8" CBN wheel that keeps my tools sharp.... you can use a high speed grinder if you already have one, but be careful that you don't take too much steel off the tool...
 
I believe that what you are looking for with regard to moving you log will be either a cant hook, to roll it, or a log jack, to lift it. Depends on your intent.
 
Before buying any bowl gouges join a woodturning club and spend some time with mentors. English tool manufacturers measure their bowl gouges on average about 1/8" less than the bar diameter, and some mail order places may not be aware. Safest to specify the bar diameter you are interested in, and buy from knowledgeable sources.

There are three different flute shapes in bowl gouges: U, V, and parabolic, and each has its proponents.

Different people prefer different bevel angles on their bowl gouges. For going through the transition (from side to bottom) many use a dedicated "bottom feeder" bowl gouge with a higher bevel angle (mine is 70 degrees) so the handle clears the rim when working the transition and bottom.

Again try to find a woodturning group and spend time with the mentors. My two cents.
 
A "spud bar" can be used in a pinch to roll a log, but not as effectively as a cant hook. However, they are expensive. Logrite makes excellent ones, Stihl also has either a cant hook or similar tool (one has a point on the bottom of the pole, the other does not).
 
Another thing to keep in mind, use a bowl gouge and not a spindle gouge. Additionally, the advantage of larger gouges is the stiffness of the shaft to help reduce vibrations while turning.
 
I have both a cant hook and a log jack. Of the two I think the log jack would be more applicable for sawing.
 
Here are the basic tools I use for bowls. Remember also, you'll need to be able to grind
them properly as well. If you can't get some personal instruction. I would advise you to
watch as many good bowl turners as possible. There are quite a few with different
techniques and philosophies. Learn them the best you can and then do what seems right
for your skillset. And don't worry about it, practice makes the best lessons of all.
Happy turning.

  • Round Nose Negative Rake Scraper... not real fond of this one.
  • Monster Tool... pretty much for hogging out... but mostly use it as a roughing gouge.
  • 40/40 Grind Bowl Gouge
  • 55 degree Swept Back Gouge. Although, this one may end up becoming a 40/40 grind.
-60 degrees Bottom Feeder Gouge.

And of course, this does not include the various sandpapers... I'll use anywhere from 80 grit to 1000 grit. Depending on what finish I'm going to use. The brands I currently have are Pinnacle, Glenn Lucas, and Monster.
 

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I like a 3/8" swept back grind bowl gouge. Doesn't let you take TOO big a bite and teaches control. I'm measuring across from flute til to flute tip NOT bowl,gouge diameter ( as you,do over in USA I think ?)
 
I actually had log jack from either husqvarna or stihl that had a folded steel triangular welded plate for the pivot point instead of the leg. That was a great tool.
 
Well, thought I had gotten back here before not but I apparently tricked myself.

Lots of good information from everyone so a big thank you again for the advice.

First things first. I'm a fair part Scotch-Irish too so I'll be keeping as much $ in my pocket as I can! On the balancing side of that though is the idea that if I tool is better and makes life easier then I'll spend the money on it. I'd like a Sorby set but if a Hurricane is almost as good then that'll do just fine for an introductory set.

Based on the advice I've gotten I'll probably go with a 55 degree swept back 3/8" bowl gouge (US measurement) and a set of spindle gouges. Whatever the bowl gouge doesn't handle bowl wise I'll probably just use my carbide scrapers for the time being.

Any advice for a sharpening system? I've got a cheap 6" bench grinder from HF but somehow I don't think that's going to get it. I've seen videos of ppl using specialized 8" wheels (maybe they're the CBN type you mentioned Tellico?). And with my gorilla type touch I could probably do with a slower grinding system, so I'm mentally preparing myself to spend more than I anticipated, again! I'll need to be able to sharpen this new 3/8" gouge plus a set of spindle gouges, so I'm all ears on a system suggestion.
 
I use a CBN wheel on a slow speed grinder... I don't remember either the brand name or where I got it right now, but I do remember I didn't pay more than $100 for it.... you might check HF to see if they have a slow speed... personally I don't think the brand name is as important as the slow speeds.... and you can get either a 6" or an 8" CBN wheel.... I use a 180 grit to give my tools a finer edge, but an 80 grit will work too, just likely to take more steel off the tool.... check the catalog where you find the Hurrticane tools... their wheels are a bit less expensive than the name brand, but seem to work just as well.
A couple of sites where you can get the wheels.... I bought mine at the Wood turning store, though I notice the prices have increased somewhat since I bought mine... D-Way is where I first heard about the wheels and my friend that turned locally had a set of D-Way wheels.... they are good, but pricey.
Just looked up the slow speed grinders... prices have gone up there too... I must have caught mine on sale... it's been 2-3 years since I bought it.

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CBN Wheels | Woodturning Grinding Wheels for Sale

All woodturning tools will dull quickly over time. Invest in a CNB wheel, and you won’t have to deal with the dust and lack of efficiency of stone wheels.
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CBN Grinding Wheels| D-Way Tools

We have been using CBN grinding wheels for sharpening our turning tools for years and have found them to be a real asset. The wheels are factory balanced, which makes the grinders run very smooth. The grinding wheels have 1-1/2" face to use, they don't need any dressing therefore you don't have...
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SHARPENING SUPPLIES - The Woodturning Store

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Woodturners Wonders has good prices on CBN wheels. I went with 180/600 grits. Mega square wheels, which have a wider surface than normal and I love them.

Wolverine system w/ Varigrind 1 jig.

1/2", 5/8" (bar diameter) are my most used bowl gouges. D-Way or Thompson make the best. 3/8 is also nice to have. Wish I'd have gotten a larger bottom feeder than 1/2" but it works for now.
 
Thanks guys. I got up to speed on the better sharpening systems out there and ended up going with one called Pro Grind. It came up on Amazon when I did a search for Wolverine and at half the price for the full setup, I think it seems worth it. It had 4.5 stars vs. Wolverine's 5. The only major complaint I found was the came lock allowed for movement, but that grinding off the finish on the friction surface takes care of it. Might upgrade to the wolverine system later, but since I'm spending so much $ right now this should do ok.

For my new grinder I'm going with the Rikon 80-805 8" slow speed grinder. Had my sights set on the 180/600 grit Mega Square CBNs at Woodturners Wonders you mentioned Misfit74, but again...you guessed it...$. The Rikon comes with 60 and 120 grit wheels. Was hesitant about those grits at first but I've since been informed they should be ok.

For my bowl gouges etc my best bet just might be a set of the Hurricane cryo M2 line, black handle I believe. I've seen different steel types referred to in formats like M2, etc. Wish I knew what all those indicated but I'm feeling confident that the M2 cryo is a decent quality. I'd like to get better value by buying a set but all the sets at The Woodturning Store have one or two I don't think I'll need at first. Wonder if I could convince the owner to whip up a special deal for me? Either way, looks like they're out of stock right now, bummer.
 
Hey PreacherJon. Don't know why I didn't but I should have dived into your tools suggestion more.

PreacherJon said:
Here are the basic tools I use for bowls. Remember also, you'll need to be able to grind
them properly as well. If you can't get some personal instruction. I would advise you to
watch as many good bowl turners as possible. There are quite a few with different
techniques and philosophies. Learn them the best you can and then do what seems right
for your skillset. And don't worry about it, practice makes the best lessons of all.
Happy turning.

  • Round Nose Negative Rake Scraper... not real fond of this one.
  • Monster Tool... pretty much for hogging out... but mostly use it as a roughing gouge.
  • 40/40 Grind Bowl Gouge
  • 55 degree Swept Back Gouge. Although, this one may end up becoming a 40/40 grind.
-60 degrees Bottom Feeder Gouge.

And of course, this does not include the various sandpapers... I'll use anywhere from 80 grit to 1000 grit. Depending on what finish I'm going to use. The brands I currently have are Pinnacle, Glenn Lucas, and Monster
Click to expand...

What's the difference between your round nose scraper pictured and this Hurricane scraper? What kind of cuts are each of them intended for in bowl turning?

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scraper.jpg


Also, on the Monster Tool, I've mostly seen 1"-1 1/4" spindle gouges used for roughing out (1st cut) on rounding a log just put on the lathe, but you say this tool might be good for that as well? Are there any differences between the two? I've seen a lot of videos so far but this is the first I've seen this tool mentioned, or seen it pictured.

Finally, I believe the 55 swept back is used for the inside bowl sides, and the 60 bottom feeder is used for the inside bottom, but what is the 40-40 grind used for? Seen it mentioned before but haven't gotten a good explanation of it yet.
 
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Bradley, Preacherjon does a lot of really nice bowls.... but my answer to your question... the angle of the RN scraper in PJ's picture makes it look like a side scraper, the cutting edge is on one side of the blade or the other depending on inside or outside scraper... may be just the way the angle lies, and may be a regular round nose... would be near same as the Hurricane you show.... I use a 1" wide round nose scraper from Benjamen's Best... just happens to be the one I have, as they were the first tools I bought.... mine is ground with a 70 degree angle and can be very agressive if not careful.
My bowl gouge is a 5/8 bar, Hurricane, ground at 60 degrees with the wings swept back slightly.... I use it from start to finish on most bowls... if I need to refine the bottom and sides, I go to my scraper or a round carbide scraper with very gentle touches. I don't use anything as a bottom feeder except the scrapers and the bowl gouge. I do have some smaller gouges ground somewhat differently I use, but usually not on bowls...
My bowl gouge is my go-to tool for most of my turnings, except I use a 3/4 or 1 inch roughing gouge to round over pepper mill blanks.

I don't use a 40/40, but it just a gouge with a 40 degree angle and a 40 degree sweep back... never heard of a monster tool, but looks a little like a bedan tool... don't have one and the one time I used one, didn't like it.

I do have a set of home made carbide tools, a round scraper, a flat square scraper and a diamond point detail tool.... they are handy in some situations as scrapers... some turners use them exclusively to turn bowls... I learned/taught myself with the bowl gouge and is my preference.

Back when I turned pens, I used a bowl gouge or a narrow round nose scraper until I reached a certain point then switched to a skew... except on plastics, I did start to finish with the skew.

My best advice is find a tool you are comfortable with, learn everything you can about it's use.... that will stand you in good stead on most of your turnings.
 
Okay... The scraper I made into a negative rake scraper... So, it basically Looks like this > two angle grinds. This really reduces catches. Also, it can go inside bowl walls. I've not used it in a long time. The one you picture is more for the bottom of bowls and platters. You can't really go onto the sidewalls of a bowl. Chuck did an excellent job in explaining it.

Monster Tool for me is just really easy to sharpen and it is very heavy and takes out a lot of vibration while roughing off the corners of bowl blanks. It's just a matter of choice. If I had a more powerful lathe, I'd just slice off the corner problems with a bowl gouge. But my little guy just doesn't have the torque.

Actually, I have come to the point where I use the 40-40 for just about everything. My eyes and brain seem to understand it much better than the Ellsworth grind. (55). Two exceptions. Finishing the bottom edges and bottom of a bowl, I go to the bottom feeder. When Twice Turning on the outside of the bowl, I tend to shear scrape more than anything... and I much prefer the Ellsworth grind.

If you want to know more about the 40-40 grind, check out these two Pro's... They are the best at the grind:

Stuart Batty: This won't let me put up the video... so you'd want to go to Mid-Maryland WoodTurners YouTube Page
Then look for his video they put up on October 22, 2018... It is a full Two Hour's on the 40-40 grind.

Or Ashley Harwood: https://www.youtube.com/c/AshleyHarwood
 
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