Gotta Go

[EBorraga]

This will be my last post for quite a while.

There are a few things that I'd like to clear the air with. First one is, Gary Max is a very good friend of mine, as a few people on here know. That being said, he is by no means a racist, as someone suggested on here. How he could be interpreted a racist is completly crazy. He called a boy Amish, which he was, and now he's a racist.

On a second note, Gary was not the first person to make cactus blanks for sale, after Curtis was already selling them. As for watch pens, there was atleast one person who posted a pic after Barry Gross, and well before Gary had ever talked about making the watch pen. As of last week he hasn't even attempted to cast a watch blank.

My last point is this. When I woke up this morning I found out that this is still a free country and this is a public forum. There have been many idea's shown on here and copied. Just to name a few, circuit board pen, coffee bean blanks, feather blanks, and the list goes on. Now to attack someone on a personal level because they make and sell the samething someone else does is pretty ludacris. There's more that could be said on this issue, but I'm tired of writing, and I'm damn tired of having to defend friends on here.

That being said I've truly learned alot from tons of people on here. I thank each and everyone of you.

So with that I bid you Adieu.

Ernie Borraga

 

[THarvey]

I'm not familar with the posts you referenced. I must admit, I lack the time to read every post here. Last time I checked, Gary is a grown man and fully capible of defending himself if needed.

If you truly feel you must go, all I can say is: Thanks for stopping by. I wish you all the best.

 

[PenMan1]

Ernie:
Don't let the actions of a few overshadow the willingness, the goodness and the pure hearts of the many.

Take this forum for what it is.... A public forum where everyone speaks freely! In a setting such as this, there is and will always be some "ya-ya", it is just human nature.

I know of no better place to debate PEN MAKING, to give help to younger turners and to learn from some veterans. Ocassionally, you will get comments that don't really belong, BUT IMHO Curtis and Jeff do a very good job of keeping those to a minimum.

As for Gary Max, those of us that know him, understand that you would be hard pressed to find a better human being, both as an advisor and as a vendor.

I don't think there is anywhere in the world that you can go without finding some of the stuff that you mentioned. I sure wouldn't let an occasional inapproiate comment keep me from this VALUABLE FORUM.

Personally, I hope that you will reconsider as I always look forward to your posts. If this is something indeed that you CANNOT live with, I for one will miss you!

 

[KenBrasier]

Andy, Very Well Said...... Ditto.

 

[bitshird]

Ernie, I totally agree, First off I didn't know Amish was a race , I thought it was a religious conviction and way of life.
Secondly I doubt if I would have been as nice to the little cretin as Gary said he was. Thirdly I hate to see you go, it's people like you, the ones who will stand up to some of the intolerant, ill-informed, misled, jerks that still make this a good site
Adios Amigo, Vaya Con Dios.

 

[RAdams]

To my friend Ernie...


I didnt read that thread after i posted, as i have been busy at home since getting here yesterday, but I have to agree that it sounds to me like some nimrod took something out of context and said something really ignorant, which in itself is the basis of all racism,,, IGNORANCE.

There are some people on here, and pretty much any forum you encounter, that pick and choose what they want to take literally. Of course sometimes there are simple misunderstandings, but sometimes, these people sit with a bad attitude about life in general and look to inflict their cruddy attitude on other people. Attitude can be contageous.I had to take some really good advice from someone here not to long ago. Don't give them the satisfaction of knowing they are getting to you. Kill them with kindness. The most respected members here don't have the highest post count, or the most tutorials. They have the kindest tongues, and the softest hearts. They don't care about the political crap of keeping the vendor side seperate from the customer side, or the business aspects at all really. They see themselves being the best pen makers they can, and sharing what knowledge they have, and gaining what is there to gain.

It took me a little while myself to figure all this out. I was too busy running my mouth to pay attention, but my eyes are open now. I know how t odeal with these problems that are beneficial to me, not the ignorance.

I really hope you reconsider leaving. You are a bonus to this site, and what I would consider a friend, so you leaving would really suck to me especially. call me and call the offender bad names we cant use here. I will listen and add some cool local versions!! Think of the military... When the enemy captures you and the torture starts, the bad guy punches you dead in the mouth, Look up at him with a bloody grin and say "Thank You SIR, May I have Another???" Don't let the haters dull your shine bro!

 

[MesquiteMan]

Folks, let's please not re-hash the now removed thread. Things were said on that thread and the thread was dealt with. Please, let's move on. Thank you.

Moderator

 

[Paul in OKC]

Didn't see the thread, but as most have said there will be some of this anywhere. Have had to bite my tongue more than once myself. Take a few days to get away, then let it go. If you come back, great, if not, I wish you well.

 

[7miles]

LATER!!!!!!!!!

 

[Craftdiggity]

Ernie,

I don't know you at all or the thread that caused all of this, but I have to say that your decision to leave the forum as a result of something like this is a shame. You can't live your life like that. There are people who offend us (and those are few and far between on this site) everywhere we go in life and to quit on the rest of us like this is not, IMHO, the right thing to do. While some might consider your decision to be one of principle, I think you are walking out on many here who value your presence. Even though I am an outsider in this conversation, I hope that you will reconsider with your friends in mind.

Besides, who are you going to talk to about pen making?

Why not come on the site and discuss pen stuff? Isn't that what the forum is supposed to be about anyway?

 

[Gin N' Tonic]

I'll be sorry to see you go but you must do as you see fit. I hope you will reconsider leaving and realize that in every group there will be those that will disagree. And there will always be some who just won't see eye to eye on anything. Much of this comes from the diversity of the forum, different personalities and cultures, all of which is part of what makes this place so good.

I will say that I have been on this forum in one name or another for quite a long time and I have seen posts like this many times. Generally the person posting will go out with a public post like this and come back in a few days or weeks very quietly. The collective memory on the forum is short and it is generally overlooked. I hope that Ernie decides to stay because I think he is a valuable member. By the Way, I also believe that Gary is a valuable member, even though we rarely see eye to eye. I bear no grudges; nor do I harbor any hard feelings or ill will to anyone here; I just speak my mind and you will agree with me or not.

If things I have posted were personal attacks then I would suspect that the forum managers and / or administrators would have told me of this infraction by now but I have not heard anything so I must believe that I was within the guidelines of the forum rules.


Again, I hope that you reconsider and decide to stay.

 

[Bree]

Ernie...

I too know nothing about the thread that seems to have caused this trouble. I do know that leaving won't solve your problem or the problems that exist on this system. Your voice deserves to be heard and you should reverse your decision and stay. You will have more good effect by staying than by leaving. So stay.

As far as board politics goes I want to add something. I have been a BBS moderator for many years. I have seen extreme contentiousness on some systems and I have seen many different ways mods have used to try to regain control of their systems. I have lived it and walked the walk. I still do today on one system that I continue to moderate.

I firmly believe that deletion of material... especially entire threads... is the worst way to achieve respect and harmony among the members. First of all people INVEST their time and effort reading and writing to threads. Deletion of a thread wipes out that investment. And if there isn't an awfully good reason for the deletion, it is tantamount to disrespect by the mods of the members' investment. And that includes many, if not most, who are NOT contentious.

Secondly, it doesn't resolve the conflict or create concordance of any kind. It just turns off the radio channel so you can't hear it. The problem still exists in the minds of the members and it will resurface again. No respect is earned or given. There is no reason to think that a new found sense of respect will characterize future interactions between the affected.

Sometimes deletion of material within a post, an individual post, a group of posts within a thread, or even a whole thread is necessary. But it should be the LAST resort and not the first resort. It is bringing a moderator's nuke capability to bear.

Quite frankly, wholesale deletion without extremely good reason is, in its spirit, contrary to something I count very sacred and dear:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment to the US Constitution.​

When I moderate, I like to think of myself as a little government benevolently helping maintain order among my constituents. It is good to have a proven model for action to refer to and follow and the Bill of Rights is a darn good one.

I don't know what was in the thread so I don't know if its deletion was justifiable. And that is exactly part of the problem... I just don't know and can't make my own judgement.

I do know that we are losing a member and a good member at that. That seems to be the one fact that we walk away with from all this. And I am not happy about it. Those who brought contention should look very deeply into their acts and how they affect the other members.

If everyone would think before they act and RESPECT the other members, we would not have this situation and you wouldn't have to be listening to me harp about it right now.

Opinion of one ordinary member sad to see another go.
:frown::frown::frown:

 

[DavidA]

The problem with the internet is Anonymity. If everyone was required to use their own name , it would be a more civil place. Another board I frequent had similar problems. They have changed the rules so the moderator can "PERMANENTLY" block the offenders by either email or better yet, the IP address

Just for Thought
DavidA

 

[Gin N' Tonic]

The problem with the internet is Anonymity. If everyone was required to use their own name , it would be a more civil place. Another board I frequent had similar problems. They have changed the rules so the moderator can "PERMANENTLY" block the offenders by either email or better yet, the IP address

Just for Thought
DavidA

That can be done now without a real name. Jeff can block by email or I.P address, problem is that many folks have a dynamic address which means it is different every time they log on. That would mean that Jeff would have to block whole domains and possibly lock out some members who did nothing wrong. Email addresses are a dime a dozen, I can have 100 google email addresses and switch back & fourth. Also; how is one to know if the name one uses is ACTUALLY their real name? I can pick out any name from the local telephone directory or just use my friends or neighbors name. Is Jeff going to have to do a background check on every member?

 

[Bree]

That can be done now without a real name. Jeff can block by email or I.P address, problem is that many folks have a dynamic address which means it is different every time they log on. That would mean that Jeff would have to block whole domains and possibly lock out some members who did nothing wrong. Email addresses are a dime a dozen, I can have 100 google email addresses and switch back & fourth. Also; how is one to know if the name one uses is ACTUALLY their real name? I can pick out any name from the local telephone directory or just use my friends or neighbors name. Is Jeff going to have to do a background check on every member?

Yep... blocking and deleting don't work very well. I have found that the very best way to maintain order is to foster a comraderie where the members self police because they like the environment that they themselves have helped create.

Peer pressure is very often the strongest form of influence that can be exercised over others on a system like this. It may take a little longer to have effect but the results are longer lasting and tend to make the system stronger not weaker. It also makes the mods job a lot less stressful.
:wink::wink::wink:

 

[MesquiteMan]

Yep... blocking and deleting don't work very well. I have found that the very best way to maintain order is to foster a comraderie where the members self police because they like the environment that they themselves have helped create.

And that is pretty much what happens here, believe it or not. The only time I delete a post or thread is if it clearly violates the Terms of Service or the Acceptable Use Policy. Occasionally I will delete a thread if the original poster contacts me and requests that I delete it if a good reason is given. Other than that, if I can not see a clear violation of the TOS or AUP, I do not delete it.

 

[Bree]

And that is pretty much what happens here, believe it or not. The only time I delete a post or thread is if it clearly violates the Terms of Service or the Acceptable Use Policy. Occasionally I will delete a thread if the original poster contacts me and requests that I delete it if a good reason is given. Other than that, if I can not see a clear violation of the TOS or AUP, I do not delete it.

That's a good way. You get no issue from me on it. I have seen how you perform your duties and I think you do a great job. As I said, I did not know the details so I could not make a judgement on either the thread or its deletion. I am pleased that your policy is similar to the one I espouse.

I hope Ernie sees that there is a strong but fair policy backed by member power. He should feel confident that he can post and interact with members without fearing disrespect or hurt of any kind. If he sees that maybe he will choose to stay with us.
:wink::wink::wink:

 

[PenMan1]

This is not a perfect world! Curtis, In my mind, you do a very good job and put up with a lot more "stuff" than I ever could!

Actually, there is a lot less of the "stuff" on this forum than any of the forums to which I belong.