Getting more comfortable with kitless pens...

[KMCloonan]

...but still throwing away a lot of sections....

This pen uses a Pensmiths blank "Twilight Mulberry" which I really like. The colors in the blank were not apparent from the outside of the blank, but as I turned the pieces, the colors appeared. Very pretty.

I'm still at the beginning of the learning curve but I feel like I am moving along.

 

[rixstix]

Good start. Nice looking pen

 

[its_virgil]

Nice one. Love the blank. Keep at it. Sections are the hardest part.

 

[Jim15]

Beautiful work.

 

[Hippie3180]

You did a very nice job, the blank is really nice. Sections used to fill me with dread, I find the small round insert and an Easy Wood helps me have more control.

 

[Tanner]

That looks great!

 

[NJturner]

Sections are the toughest. A good mandrel helps - Rick Harrell has a nice one that cuts down on the stress of the thread breaking off as it mounts in reverse with little to no stress on the threads. Nice work on the pens!

Kevin

 

[KMCloonan]

Sections are the toughest. A good mandrel helps - Rick Harrell has a nice one that cuts down on the stress of the thread breaking off as it mounts in reverse with little to no stress on the threads. Nice work on the pens!

Kevin

Thanks Kevin - I have Rick's double ended mandrel and I agree, it's a huge help. I also have Rick's mandrel for pen body and I have another mandrel for caps.

 

[d_bondi]

Nice work Kevin. Kitless is a lot of fun and very addicting, but it can be frustrating sometimes.

I know you didn't ask for any help or insight, so ignore the rest if you like...

When in your process are the sections breaking on you?

Are you cutting a relief at the base of the tenon? I stopped doing this because it creates a weak spot. I cut a small relief into the threads on the inside of the barrel tenon instead. Section is stronger and I like the look better. It also reduces the number of turns to seat the section in the barrel by just a little.

Are you using Jowo or Bock nibs? The one in your photos looks like a Jowo. Just FYI, the Bock nib threads are a bit larger diameter (0.5mm larger) and they are farther down on the housing. Both of these features potentially make the section thinner near the base of the tenon. Here is a picture that shows what I am talking about. It is something that I didn't think much about until I started making sections for Bock nibs and they were failing more frequently, so I started looking closely and measuring and this was my conclusion.

Last question, are you using Rick's step drills for drilling before threading, they are a game changer because they make the process so much easier.

I hope some of this helps.

David

 

[NGLJ]

Well done for still learning. Love the material. I am on the learning curve but way behind you. I keep thinking about trying a fountain pen, but thus far haven't plucked up the courage! I think I need more general practice with regular refills before I venture.

 

[KMCloonan]

Nice work Kevin. Kitless is a lot of fun and very addicting, but it can be frustrating sometimes.

I know you didn't ask for any help or insight, so ignore the rest if you like...

When in your process are the sections breaking on you?

Are you cutting a relief at the base of the tenon? I stopped doing this because it creates a weak spot. I cut a small relief into the threads on the inside of the barrel tenon instead. Section is stronger and I like the look better. It also reduces the number of turns to seat the section in the barrel by just a little.

Are you using Jowo or Bock nibs? The one in your photos looks like a Jowo. Just FYI, the Bock nib threads are a bit larger diameter (0.5mm larger) and they are farther down on the housing. Both of these features potentially make the section thinner near the base of the tenon. Here is a picture that shows what I am talking about. It is something that I didn't think much about until I started making sections for Bock nibs and they were failing more frequently, so I started looking closely and measuring and this was my conclusion.

View attachment 383456

Last question, are you using Rick's step drills for drilling before threading, they are a game changer because they make the process so much easier.

I hope some of this helps.

David

David,
Thanks for the great info - most of my sections broke due to avoidable mistakes. I did try cutting a relief at the base of the tenon. This just weakened it and it easily broke. I like your idea about cutting a relief (chamfer?) on the ID of the barrel tenon to guide the section into place.

Some of my other section breaks included a learning curve using Rick's double end mandrel. I incorrectly threaded the section onto the mandrel using the tenon threads (instead of threading the tenon to the mandrel using the nib internal threads). when I tried to shape the section with my carbide cutter, the section sheared off at the tenon. I lost 2 sections doing this before I figured it out.

Where I am not having consistent luck is drilling out the ID of the section for the nib threads. I started with 4 drill sizes (per Chad Schimmel's video on You tube). My first section worked well doing this, but it is a hassle swapping out drill bits and being careful to not drill too deep with each one. I bought Rick's stepped drill bit, and the first time I used it, it worked excellent. Since that time, I seem to drill too deep with the stepped drill, and when I go to thread the inside of the section there's no "meat" for the tap to thread into. I need to practice more with the stepped drill.

I am set up for Jowo #6 nibs. I really like your diagram and will use it as a reference.

Thanks again for your insights!

Kevin

 

[KMCloonan]

Well done for still learning. Love the material. I am on the learning curve but way behind you. I keep thinking about trying a fountain pen, but thus far haven't plucked up the courage! I think I need more general practice with regular refills before I venture.

Thanks Graham - I watched a video (Chad Schimmer, Turner's Warehouse) on making a bespoke rollerball pen, and to be honest, I chose to learn the fountain pen first - it seems simpler compared to shaping a rollerball section, but I will definitely be giving that a try before too long.

 

[NGLJ]

Interesting how we viewed it from a different position. I thought a fountain pen was more of a challenged and chose to go rollerball first because of the complexity of the fountain pen section. Different strokes for different folks I guess . I can see that having the step drill can make tackling the fountain pen section more approachable. The other parts are basically the same for both. Looks like I will be investing, subject to "home" approval of course . Since, I am in Canada, and paying in Canadian pesos, the costs do ramp up rather quickly with the current exchange. I do have a US postal address, and live near the border, but I don't know how tariffs might affect things.

 

[d_bondi]

Kevin,

I'm glad this may have helped. Here are a few more thoughts.

David,
Thanks for the great info - most of my sections broke due to avoidable mistakes. I did try cutting a relief at the base of the tenon. This just weakened it and it easily broke. I like your idea about cutting a relief (chamfer?) on the ID of the barrel tenon to guide the section into place.

My section threads are M10x1, so I just use a 10mm bit and drill into the barrel section about 1.5mm to remove the first bit of internal threads. Here is a picture that may help.

Some of my other section breaks included a learning curve using Rick's double end mandrel. I incorrectly threaded the section onto the mandrel using the tenon threads (instead of threading the tenon to the mandrel using the nib internal threads). when I tried to shape the section with my carbide cutter, the section sheared off at the tenon. I lost 2 sections doing this before I figured it out.

I haven't ordered one of those double ended mandrels from Rick "yet". I have one of his older ones so I am holding the section by its external threads, BUT... I use a live center in the open end to steady during shaping. I only pull the live center out for the last little bit of shaping on the very end.

Where I am not having consistent luck is drilling out the ID of the section for the nib threads. I started with 4 drill sizes (per Chad Schimmel's video on You tube). My first section worked well doing this, but it is a hassle swapping out drill bits and being careful to not drill too deep with each one. I bought Rick's stepped drill bit, and the first time I used it, it worked excellent. Since that time, I seem to drill too deep with the stepped drill, and when I go to thread the inside of the section there's no "meat" for the tap to thread into. I need to practice more with the stepped drill.

Rick's step drill is designed to be used to drill 1.077" from the tip of the bit. Most of the time drilling, we are measuring from the edge of the cutting edge/beginning of the flute. Use a caliper to mark the bit that 1.077" from the very tip of the bit and I think you will get the results you are looking for.

I am set up for Jowo #6 nibs. I really like your diagram and will use it as a reference.

I'm glad it helped.

I find order of operations creating sections to be critical. Here is my order of operations (simplified):

1. With section blank in collet chuck, face the end and cut the tenon. I use the Hinze tenon cutter.
2. Thread the tenon. While doing this, I leave the 6mm tenon cutter shaft in the blank for strength. Remove shaft after threading tenon.
3. Reverse the blank in the collet chuck.
4. Part blank off and face to desired length.
5. Using Rick's Jowo #6 step bit drill in 1.077" from tip of bit.
6. Using M7.4x0.5 tap, tap internal/nib housing threads into section blank.
7. Remove from collet chuck mount on mandrel and shape with live center in open end.

This is my order so that I leave as much material as possible to support these operations. I realize that flipping the blank in the collet chuck "could" introduce some concentricity issues, but I haven't had an issue. If I feel the blank is out of round, I will chuck it up and surface it to round before starting this process. Also, I wouldn't want to try to drill and tap the internals while holding it by the section threads.

If you have more questions or want to chat through something, shoot me a DM and we can get on the phone sometime.

David

 

[KMCloonan]

Kevin,

I'm glad this may have helped. Here are a few more thoughts.


My section threads are M10x1, so I just use a 10mm bit and drill into the barrel section about 1.5mm to remove the first bit of internal threads. Here is a picture that may help.

View attachment 383471


I haven't ordered one of those double ended mandrels from Rick "yet". I have one of his older ones so I am holding the section by its external threads, BUT... I use a live center in the open end to steady during shaping. I only pull the live center out for the last little bit of shaping on the very end.


Rick's step drill is designed to be used to drill 1.077" from the tip of the bit. Most of the time drilling, we are measuring from the edge of the cutting edge/beginning of the flute. Use a caliper to mark the bit that 1.077" from the very tip of the bit and I think you will get the results you are looking for.


I'm glad it helped.

I find order of operations creating sections to be critical. Here is my order of operations (simplified):

1. With section blank in collet chuck, face the end and cut the tenon. I use the Hinze tenon cutter.
2. Thread the tenon. While doing this, I leave the 6mm tenon cutter shaft in the blank for strength. Remove shaft after threading tenon.
3. Reverse the blank in the collet chuck.
4. Part blank off and face to desired length.
5. Using Rick's Jowo #6 step bit drill in 1.077" from tip of bit.
6. Using M7.4x0.5 tap, tap internal/nib housing threads into section blank.
7. Remove from collet chuck mount on mandrel and shape with live center in open end.

This is my order so that I leave as much material as possible to support these operations. I realize that flipping the blank in the collet chuck "could" introduce some concentricity issues, but I haven't had an issue. If I feel the blank is out of round, I will chuck it up and surface it to round before starting this process. Also, I wouldn't want to try to drill and tap the internals while holding it by the section threads.

If you have more questions or want to chat through something, shoot me a DM and we can get on the phone sometime.

David

My order is the same as yours, with one slight addition - I use a #2 center drill to start the pilot hole, just to make sure I don't start off center due to the drill bit wandering. I also use the Hinze tenon cutter and love it.

Your suggestion to mark the stepped drill at the 1.077" mark is exactly what I need to know. I am certain that will give me the reproducibility I need. I was trying to eyeball the last step on the bit and only go in as deep as the last step, but that is not a precise measurement. Especially with only one working eyeball (I am arranging to have a cataract removed soon to help with my stereoscopic vision)

Thanks again for the help. If I need anything else, I'll be sure to shoot you a DM.

KC

 

[d_bondi]

My order is the same as yours, with one slight addition - I use a #2 center drill to start the pilot hole, just to make sure I don't start off center due to the drill bit wandering. I also use the Hinze tenon cutter and love it.

Your suggestion to mark the stepped drill at the 1.077" mark is exactly what I need to know. I am certain that will give me the reproducibility I need. I was trying to eyeball the last step on the bit and only go in as deep as the last step, but that is not a precise measurement. Especially with only one working eyeball (I am arranging to have a cataract removed soon to help with my stereoscopic vision)

Thanks again for the help. If I need anything else, I'll be sure to shoot you a DM.

KC

I use the #2 center drill to start any drilling as well. Please do let me know if the 1.077" depth resolves the issue.

Glad to help anytime!

David