??? for the judges

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jttheclockman

jttheclockman

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I just made my vote for the free style pen contest and all are very well done and nice entries. This question is just for my own use and maybe others can benefit from it also for next year. Here was my entries.

yellowheartsierra-1.jpg



reheartsierra-1.jpg



My question is first of all what exactly were you looking for??? What was the deciding factors to pick the ones you guys did??? Using a kit did that take points away??? Does doing pens with the same theme you have done before make a difference??? Does the catagory need to be broken down differently and that one I am not sure how??? Does having a stand or fancy display for the pen such as Jeff's sponge Bob play any role??/ Seems this was the one catagory that got the most responses and any thoughts from the judges will be helpful for next time. Thanks and by the way this is no way a sour grapes posting. I think the ones chosen were fine choices and it had to be a tough choice.
 
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John I was not in that contest nor was I a judge-----ask yourself this.
How many pens are built a year useing this style.
Note I did not say better than or as good as---just that kinda thought.
 
John,

First off, the judges will change from year to year, and their criteria will of course also change.

Second, the free style contest was a last second idea and entry. We are planning to get ourselves organized earlier and better next year and will plan to publish a list of criteria for each contest to assist members.

If anyone has any ideas for improving the Bash next year, please feel free to PM me.

Your post was not sour grapes at all. It was an excellent question that should help to improve the 2010 Bash.
 
I've never seen pens posted here with knots and segmented colors like that. There are a lot of pens posted with knots, but those are pretty unique, as far I know. I think John's pens are very nice.
 
As cav said, the freestyle contest was a last minute addition, on top of that my father-in-law passed away right as we were getting close to the judging, so things kind of got hectic. Luckily Ed and Dawn jumped in to help round up some judges and coordinate. If it weren't for them we would still be dead in the water.

Basically several judges that viewed all the pens and figured out what they felt were the best 6 pens. How they quantified best was really up to each judge as they were reviewing. I know sometimes kit pens get overlooked, that's why we also had the judges pick out what they felt were the top 3 kit pens. All the judges results were combined to pick the top 5 pens, the 6th(almost made it) and the top kit pen. The almost made it and Top kit pens haven't been announced but they are selected.

I also ran the slimline competition, and it has been in the planning for several months. We had judges picked and criteria set before the bash began. For that competition, judges awarded points in 3 categories(fit & finish, form, and innovation). Each category could receive between 0 and 10 points. All these points will be tallied and that will be what we use to determine the winners.

I imagine next year you will probably see more contest with some type of judging categories or guidelines. I think somewhere between the 2 contests I ran would be a good point. You want the judges to have freedom to pick the pens they like, but you also want the contestants to understand where to aim.

I understand you questions about the pens and don't really view it as sour grapes. I'll probably ask the same question after the newbie challenge is over. I've got a couple of pens in there and have no idea if they are anywhere near the top or the bottom of the pack.

Daniel had a post (http://www.penturners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=802939&postcount=54) over in the newbie section that gave me some insight. Basically you don't know what the judges are looking for unless they actually tell you.
 
There were a lot of very nice pens entered in the contest, any one of which I would be delighted to own. I don't think any list of technical criteria will could ever be a substitute for the element of appreciation that a judge brings to the decision. [before someone tries to lynch me - I wasn't a judge].

Marc
 
I wasn't a judge, either.

But, I have seen the results. There were 5 judges. Your "yellow knot" got some votes, but not enough to get to the finals.

The contest was "Freestyle" and I believe the judging was "freestyle". To say any more, before the polling is finished, I think would be "out of line". They are a great selection of well-made pens.

I would recommend that the judges also withhold comment until the voting is over and Ben announces his winners.
 
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Also judges. If you want to stay anonymous please send me a PM with any comments and I'll add them to this or any other thread. You did a nice service for the site and there's no reason for you to worry about people disagreeing with you choices.
 
Also I agree with marc to some extent. The judges need freedom to interpret the pens. They are judges after all.

Also John I just send you a PM as well.
 
I want to go on record and say I am not questioning the judges decisions but there needs to be goals we can follow. tell us some criteria so we have an idea what is allowed and what isn't. Hopefully when all is said and done the judges will speak or paas on to someone what their thought process was. With any type of contest there has to be some kind of guidelines.
 
I have participated in many competitions throughout the years, both on this site and at other venues. Judging is very subjective. What the judges like today may be totally different than what they like tomorrow. Their state of mind, mood, wellness, etc. will influence their decisions. Some judges feel that bigger is better. Others prefer colorful works, while other prefer intricate details. As a competitor, all you can do is roll the dice and play the game. If judging were more objective (based on a strict set of rules and measurements) then the artistic interpretation will be lost.

Please note that I was not a judge, but a competitor in the contest. That said, I could have done without the trash talking aspect or at least moved it to another thread. I know I did not see all of the entries because they were buried somewhere under the bashing posts.
 
John,

I don't think you were second guessing the judges, I just don't want the judges to feel intimidated. Like I said earlier, I understand your point and agree with it in many ways.

Ben
 
I think the key word is freestyle which pretty much says everyone can do what they want. As soon as there are 'goals' or requirements (other than that it writes) it's not freestyle any longer. Even fit and finish are subject to interpretation - what if I decided to submits a pen with a sandblasted finish? Actually, that's an interesting idea....

Marc


jttheclockman said:
I want to go on record and say I am not questioning the judges decisions but there needs to be goals we can follow. tell us some criteria so we have an idea what is allowed and what isn't. Hopefully when all is said and done the judges will speak or paas on to someone what their thought process was. With any type of contest there has to be some kind of guidelines.
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I have never competed on IAP, but I have done many competitions and have many huge wins. There is one rule I try to abide by, and that is blow them away. Blowing them away is making something they won't forget and won't get lost amongst everything else. Nobody will every say your pen sucks, and that is true in all ways, because you delivered a great pen with great quality. But, there's several other pens that did not make the final cut that did make a big impression on me. I was very inspired by the green/yellow pen..Habjerto? maybe, and I loved the pen with the vine cut into a window. Those two pens were unforgettable, as are the ones that did make it..all my opinion of course. I bet the choices came down to about 8-10 fairly easy and then things got pretty difficult to decide. I am surprised I made it, but not shocked. My pen isn't the greatest pen you ever saw, but it is memorable. It makes you smile, it is expertly crafted and always draws you back to it. The idea of it all is likely the only reason for my success. Dare to be different.
Hopefully some of that makes sense. Now it's not looking good for me, but I've lost many a battle before too. Losing makes you fight harder next time!
 
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mrcook4570 said:
As a competitor, all you can do is roll the dice and play the game. If judging were more objective (based on a strict set of rules and measurements) then the artistic interpretation will be lost.
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I agree with Stan.

Looking at the entries it is very apparent that there are many different styles. Each one of the five pens chosen by the judges are unique in their own way. It is obvious that each pen maker has their own style they specialize in. Unless the judges criteria were pretty broad it would be difficult to make a pen catering to those criteria.

Given the relatively short notice on the competition, I think the best someone can do is to make a unique pen to the best of their ability within the style they are most familiar with.
 
Consider this: When you enter an "Art and Craft" event that is offering prizes, what are the criteria?

Look at who wins. The unusual - yet impeccably crafted. Intarsia, fine paintings, great photography. Things that make an impression.

On a pen turning site, you have a little better odds. You know the judges have also MADE the product - they know the process. So, I suspect you need to make something that they feel is exceptional.

In this contest, I was happy to see wood, resin, metal and SOME kit parts in evidence.

Another question that occured to ME last night, John. Which of the pens that were selected do you feel you surpassed?? Perhaps you should look at this competition and, like me, realize that you make a GOOD pen, very suitable for sale.

However, when I go to judged shows, I don't expect to beat the intarsia guy. HIS product makes a bigger impression on the judges --- as does the darn stained glass girl, right next to my booth -- every time!!! But, I make a few bucks -so what's wrong with that???
 
As in most judged events, including this with 150 or more "judges" now, there is rarely a unamimous winner. I woud not be surprised if the votes of the fewer judges that selected the finalists mirrored the results of the larger vote. If the results were predictable, the contest would have been less fun. I can tell you next year, I will try for a better entry. Had I had more time and knew the contest was coming, I would have done more planning.

While some perhaps did not like the trashing, I say keep it in next year. Who can argue with over 10,000 views in a few weeks.
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
Heck, I didn't even see those pens you mentioned, Jeff! I'll have to dig through that thread again!

Andrew
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You deffinitely should browse through the contest again Andrew. It's unfortunate only one person can truly win the top dog. I am very happy I wasn't a judge. I honestly liked the marbly pen with the vines in it the best of all the entries. It inspired me. But...it also is very relatable to the style I'm into..so maybe that biases me. That's a reason you need more judges to discuss all the options with. Unravelled is pretty darn great too..probably my second pic. yet again..more scrollsawing! :biggrin:
 
Seems to me the contest was judged based on "what blows your skirt up". For a free style contest, I think that's all the criteria we need.
 
BRobbins629 said:
While some perhaps did not like the trashing, I say keep it in next year. Who can argue with over 10,000 views in a few weeks.
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I agree I think the trash talking was great fun. I enjoyed both reading and throwing in a few jabs. I think it might be better next year to have 2 threads one that just shows the entries and one that includes the entries and the trash talking. If I'm running the contest again next year, I'm planning on including it.
 
I think your plan is a good one, Ben.

However, based on putting a contest together in two days and having it one of the most "watched" contests on the forum, I'd say you were a


GREAT SUCCESS!!!​
 
Andrew, you are not the only one that did not see all of the pens. I missed several. I would like to see the trash talking moved to a separate thread. I did enjoy reading it, but it overshadowed the pens. I would much rather see all of the pens lined up one after another.
 
Ben, just wanted to pass on a hearty THANKS!! to taking the time to throw together this contest. As far as the final selection I like to think the panel just "flipped a coin" as all the entries in this fun contest were spectacular. I think the banter, while abrasive to some, actually brings folks together with a laugh and friendly jab. In fact, if it weren't for the comedy I probably would not have bothered entering.

Cheers,
 
Ben, Chris hit it right on the head, it was a ton of fun and all the post prove it. Lets do it again.



chriselle said:
Ben, just wanted to pass on a hearty THANKS!! to taking the time to throw together this contest. As far as the final selection I like to think the panel just "flipped a coin" as all the entries in this fun contest were spectacular. I think the banter, while abrasive to some, actually brings folks together with a laugh and friendly jab. In fact, if it weren't for the comedy I probably would not have bothered entering.

Cheers,
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jttheclockman said:
I want to go on record and say I am not questioning the judges decisions but there needs to be goals we can follow. tell us some criteria so we have an idea what is allowed and what isn't. Hopefully when all is said and done the judges will speak or paas on to someone what their thought process was. With any type of contest there has to be some kind of guidelines.
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John,

Your request is not unreasonable, but is simply not practical. Art strikes different people in different ways. This is one reason why we have a number of different contests with different judges. Judging in art and/or craft shows is subjective, not objective.

Although you state that you are not questioning the judges' decisions, continuing to press the issue has the potential to make the judges start to second guess their decisions. This is not fair to them, and could well make it more difficult to get volunteer judges for future contests.

Please, let's drop the issue. These contests are supposed to be fun.
 
Hey Cav, it has been droped. I talk to Ben and there was no hard feelings. I understand now that there are no guidelines in the freestyle. That is fine then. I understand that now. Many of the posters have explained this. I agree that judging is very subjective. I have judged scrollsawing events so I have been on the other side. I felt I had the right to ask. I never entered a contest here and I thought I would join in the fun and I did. I am glad I did. I learned some things.

Every contest here was well run and the judges here did a fantastic job with not an easy assignment. They all did a great job behind the scenes that we do not even know about. I personally would like to thank them and all those who put those long hard hours into making this the bash to be remembered and I am sure this will be hard to be topped. I put my name on the list to help next year if called upon. I have not been a member long enough to know all the rules of every event you have here.

Boy it seems I am always saying I am sorry on this site. Let me say publically I am sorry if this question was out of line. I meant no ill effects from it. I said that there will be some that see the question as a sour grapes thing. It is done and put behind us.


While I am at it I want to thank the many sponsorers that donated the prizes for this huge show. There is no other place on the net that puts on a show like this. Also a great big thanks goes out to Jeff and the moderators of this site to allow this event. You would be hard pressed to find another group come together like this one.
 
jttheclockman said:
Hey Cav, it has been droped. I talk to Ben and there was no hard feelings. I understand now that there are no guidelines in the freestyle. That is fine then. I understand that now. Many of the posters have explained this. I agree that judging is very subjective. I have judged scrollsawing events so I have been on the other side. I felt I had the right to ask. I never entered a contest here and I thought I would join in the fun and I did. I am glad I did. I learned some things.

Every contest here was well run and the judges here did a fantastic job with not an easy assignment. They all did a great job behind the scenes that we do not even know about. I personally would like to thank them and all those who put those long hard hours into making this the bash to be remembered and I am sure this will be hard to be topped. I put my name on the list to help next year if called upon. I have not been a member long enough to know all the rules of every event you have here.

Boy it seems I am always saying I am sorry on this site. Let me say publically I am sorry if this question was out of line. I meant no ill effects from it. I said that there will be some that see the question as a sour grapes thing. It is done and put behind us.


While I am at it I want to thank the many sponsorers that donated the prizes for this huge show. There is no other place on the net that puts on a show like this. Also a great big thanks goes out to Jeff and the moderators of this site to allow this event. You would be hard pressed to find another group come together like this one.
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Great post, John, thanks for doing it.

You may regret the comment about helping next year!!! :biggrin::biggrin:
 
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