Finials and overall pen length

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Hippie3180

Hippie3180

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I'm just curious as to what most prefer as far as fountain pen length, I do know that kit pens tend to run more to a standard length. Fountain pens seem to run towards a wider range of lengths due to maker preference, additions of windows and finials etc.

I'm revisiting finials and my preference is something approx 3/8" this of course adds a bit more length to my pen even after the trimming down of cap and body to add the finials, example the pen I made today is a bit over 6". This is not really unusual in the fountain pen world as some are quite large.

My question is, should I strive for a bit less length, I do have some constraints within my build, I have to have some meat on the bone to attach my finial, and I need to be sure my nib is not touching the finial within the cap?
 

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I try to keep mine 5.25-5.5" max, when capped. I don't have a particular reason besides the fact that I find that to be a manageable length for sticking in a shirt pocket. I also like the design challenge of putting a pen in a smaller footprint. I don't think there's a right or wrong length, though.
 
jalbert said:
I try to keep mine 5.25-5.5" max, when capped. I don't have a particular reason besides the fact that I find that to be a manageable length for sticking in a shirt pocket. I also like the design challenge of putting a pen in a smaller footprint. I don't think there's a right or wrong length, though.
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That probably is a more "friendly" length. Hmmm, I wonder what changes I could make to get closer to that, obviously I could shorten my finials a bit, but I would still need to make a change to cap and body length.
 
jalbert said:
I try to keep mine 5.25-5.5" max, when capped. I don't have a particular reason besides the fact that I find that to be a manageable length for sticking in a shirt pocket. I also like the design challenge of putting a pen in a smaller footprint. I don't think there's a right or wrong length, though.
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Ditto here. The postable one that I finished today ended at 5-3/8" and a body diameter just shy of 1/2". I have been trying to keep the finials between 0.250" and 0.300" long.
 
I think I will work towards making some changes. I guess the answer should have been more obvious to me, but weirdly I never carry a pen in my pocket and just don't think about that kind of functionality really. I'm not very particular about size if it's not a railroad spike of a pen.
 
Simply from a visual standpoint, I like a slightly shorter finial (s). The .25 - .30" suggestion works for me.
 
My Lewis pen comes in at 140mm closed. My pens aren't designed to be posted, so the pen, without cap, is a comfortable 132mm.
You can add on a finial, with minimal added length, by drilling out the interior. I usually drill it out with 7mm or more recently 1/4". This allows the point of the nib some space. How much you drill out and to what depth will depend on things like the size of your tenon, the tenon thread, the size of your clip ID, etc.
This is one I just finished yesterday. It's 140mm long capped. You can see where the point of the nib is, it sits just inside the finial hole. The tenon is a 10x.75mm thread


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Just remember when you are calculating it, the point of the nib is not centered. I mix calculated the cape length once, and the 1.5 stub nib was just scraping the finial hole when screwing in the cap. I fixed it by removing 1.5mm from the finial tenon.
Pen designing, requires a lot of calculating. As well as some trial and error.

Can't wait to see your next one.
 
darrin1200 said:
My Lewis pen comes in at 140mm closed. My pens aren't designed to be posted, so the pen, without cap, is a comfortable 132mm.
You can add on a finial, with minimal added length, by drilling out the interior. I usually drill it out with 7mm or more recently 1/4". This allows the point of the nib some space. How much you drill out and to what depth will depend on things like the size of your tenon, the tenon thread, the size of your clip ID, etc.
This is one I just finished yesterday. It's 140mm long capped. You can see where the point of the nib is, it sits just inside the finial hole. The tenon is a 10x.75mm thread


View attachment 376781


View attachment 376782

Just remember when you are calculating it, the point of the nib is not centered. I mix calculated the cape length once, and the 1.5 stub nib was just scraping the finial hole when screwing in the cap. I fixed it by removing 1.5mm from the finial tenon.
Pen designing, requires a lot of calculating. As well as some trial and error.

Can't wait to see your next one.
Click to expand...
We've been making what would be considered desk pens up until now, but when you add finials it's just too long. This year we are upping things to add finials and clips so we are currently working on a more pocket sized design. Currently our mandrel are too long for this, so it's going to require new ones, but we'll get it worked out.

Your information is very helpful while we are in the midst of revamping our pens overall length.
 
Like Darrin, I drill out the threaded tenon of the clip finial so I can shorten the length of the cap without the nib crashing into the end. (His photo shows it better than I would have managed!)

If you think about the geometry, the absolute minimum length of the functional part of the pen is (1) the nib unit with (2) a cartridge/converter attached. To this you have to add (3) a gap inside the barrel (4) the thickness of the material at barrel end (5) the clearance at the tip of the nib inside the cap and last, (6) the thickness of the material at the finial end of the cap.

Note the size of the Bock #5 nib unit is longer than the Bock #6 and JoWo #5 and #6 (I don't understand why!) so I avoid that one.

You can shrink the required length of the barrel by saying it's "cartridge only" or uses a short converter (such a squeeze fill instead of the standard piston) or is eyedropper. (That of course might impact the customer's opinion, some would rule it out others wouldn't object to, say, only using cartridges.)

The rest of it is down to the way you craft the pen parts.
 
I've got 3 kitless fountain pens from IAP members, including one of yours, Michelle.

They are all wonderful pens and I rotate them through for my daily journaling. Yours is the one on the left and is almost 3/4" longer than the other two. While I don't notice the extra length when writing with it, the overall length keeps it from fitting in my pen storage box.

eLKXDNc.jpg
 
Yes, that is a consideration for sure, we started out pretty long as per the instruction we received in the beginning, we have come down in size, but are still limited by the mandrels we have. We are totally reworking things to accommodate a more average size pen. We will be getting new mandrels soon etc.
 
Hippie3180 said:
I'm just curious as to what most prefer as far as fountain pen length, I do know that kit pens tend to run more to a standard length. Fountain pens seem to run towards a wider range of lengths due to maker preference, additions of windows and finials etc.

I'm revisiting finials and my preference is something approx 3/8" this of course adds a bit more length to my pen even after the trimming down of cap and body to add the finials, example the pen I made today is a bit over 6". This is not really unusual in the fountain pen world as some are quite large.

My question is, should I strive for a bit less length, I do have some constraints within my build, I have to have some meat on the bone to attach my finial, and I need to be sure my nib is not touching the finial within the cap?
Click to expand...
5.75" is my max. 5.5" seems to be the sweet spot
 
I agree, 5.5" is an optimal length I think, especially if you want to pocket wear.

Thank you!
 
Hippie3180 said:
I agree, 5.5" is an optimal length I think, especially if you want to pocket wear.

Thank you!
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FWIW
I think that the number of FP users that pocket carry are the minority. A quick check of my shirts show an average pocket depth of +/- 5". Diameter is also a consideration. For me a FP designed for pocket carry would be a very small pen by todays standards for custom pens (although all of the well known factories make them in this size, normally with a #5 nib and post-able). I may offer one at some point, but am still undecided if the market is there (they are also the most challenging to make). I do agree that 6" is a maximum, longer looks off and is longer than necessary. I think that cap length is important to the look of the pen also. Of the three pens posted above by @derekdd the one on the right has the best proportions with a much shorter cap than the others. The center pen looks odd with a cap that appears about as long as the body.
Many customers want a clip, primarily for looks, not because they will use it in a shirt pocket.
 
Hippie3180 said:
Yes, that is a consideration for sure, we started out pretty long as per the instruction we received in the beginning, we have come down in size, but are still limited by the mandrels we have. We are totally reworking things to accommodate a more average size pen. We will be getting new mandrels soon etc.
Click to expand...
This is the advantage of a metal lathe. I make my own mandrels out of brass.
Starting to amass a collection. LOL
 
darrin1200 said:
This is the advantage of a metal lathe. I make my own mandrels out of brass.
Starting to amass a collection. LOL
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We've been pondering a metal lathe, but it seems like a big expense for a mandrel/sleeve maker with lots of quirks and maintenance.
 
As you get further into the custom pens, the metal lathe can really help speed up production, with increased accuracy. It's so much easier to cut the tenons to thread size.
Also, if you're making your own mandrels, you are not restricted to what you can buy. I'll take a picture of my growing collection when I get to the shop and post it here.
 
We've very recently pondered a metal lathe, realizing we could amp up production and be more accurate, but I'm leary of the maintenance and particular needs a metal lathe would require, also I've no idea how to set one up or even how to use it. I know there are You Tubes, blondihacks…but it's a big expense if I can't figure it out. Yikes!
 
Hippie3180 said:
We've very recently pondered a metal lathe, realizing we could amp up production and be more accurate, but I'm leary of the maintenance and particular needs a metal lathe would require, also I've no idea how to set one up or even how to use it. I know there are You Tubes, blondihacks…but it's a big expense if I can't figure it out. Yikes!
Click to expand...
I hear you. Once you can feel good with the step, it will pay itself back. But if you can't sleep at the end of VC try get e day for worry, then the times not right.

The see are my mandrel collection.
image.jpg


I'm also starting to do rings on the metal lathe.
image.jpg
 
darrin1200 said:
I hear you. Once you can feel good with the step, it will pay itself back. But if you can't sleep at the end of VC try get e day for worry, then the times not right.

The see are my mandrel collection.
View attachment 376865

I'm also starting to do rings on the metal lathe.
View attachment 376866
Click to expand...
I really wanted to be able to do all those things to upgrade my pens and skill level, but I also understand the metal lathe isn't the only big expense…there's tooling as well. I feel like it's so tempting, but I'm just teetering on the edge of thinking it's a huge move for us. We have Rick make our mandrels, but it sure would be nice to be able to crank out new ones at will. You have a nice collection of mandrels there.
 
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