ethical question

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Rum Pig

Rum Pig

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Mar 18, 2009
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Humpty Doo Australia
I have posted this on the OZ forum but I would like to know what you think aswell

One of my best customers came to me yesterday with a slimline pen and pencil set he had purchased at a local market before he knew I made pens. I will refrain from telling you what I think of the quality of workmanship on these pens. He asked if I could fix them up for him as he likes the timber.
Is this frowned upon or is this ok I know in other industry's it is frowned upon to work on someone else work. but what about us turners???
What is your thoughts??
 
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This is not an ethical issue. Tell him that you can fix it up to a degree, but that the work is crappy. Offer to make a good one in a similar wood. Simple.
 
jkeithrussell said:
This is not an ethical issue. Tell him that you can fix it up to a degree, but that the work is crappy. Offer to make a good one in a similar wood. Simple.
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He is a good customer so he has bought many pens from me in fact the day he asked me to do this he spent $200 on some more pens.
He likes to collect pens so he does not want to throw them away.
 
I have the same answer, but a little different approach.

IF you can get similar wood, or better, simply point out to him that disassembling a pen is "chancy". Rather than take a risk of breaking what he has and likes (with reservations), you would prefer to make something from beginning to end. It will actually take fewer steps and be more likely to achieve success.

But tell him you prefer to make YOUR pens from god's work (of course if he likes resins, you will settle for a princess' work), not from some other guy's work.

Sound good?
 
Since he such a good customer, you might explain to him that sometimes its harder to "fix up" rather than make a new pen. If he is willing to pay your price, I don't see the harm but don't short change yourself.
 
I'd combine the above responses. He's a really good customer so say "yes" but you want to dissuade him so ...

"Normally I wouldn't do this but because you are such a good customer I will attempt it. I can't guarantee it since disassembling pens is a risky endeavor and it will take quite a bit of time. I'll charge you 1/2 my normal hourly rate but it will still not be cheap. If you prefer, I've found some wood very much like that used and can make you new pens just like those except with my quality throughout and I'll sell them to you for ____. Your choice."

Now he is happy either way he goes which means he will be back.

GK
 
I'm with Ed to some extent. Offer to make him a pen out of the same wood and give it to him. Most times it pays to keep your good customers happy with a little cost to you. Blank? $6 slimline kit? $3 labor $10
I just feel that most times if you WOW the client, he will come back for more.
 
Everyone seems to be agreeing witch is good, I first thought like you and was ready to do it but then I remembered trying to get a tattoo redone and everyone was saying they do not rework someone else's work so I thought it best to ask.
I will try and fix his pens but I already have informed him there is no guarantees. I'm pretty sure he will not go for a new pen as he paid a lot of money for these one's.

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts:)
 
Good loyal customers are the core to any sucessful business. I would try to accomodate him and probably offer him what Ed suggested for free as a way to say I appreciate your business.

Ed. Very witty response to the crack about being old. Old turners are often like old tools, they may not look as pretty but they can be sharp as heck!

Jim Smith
 
Why can't he just return these to the store he bought them from and let you make him better pens?

If what he bought needs to be "fixed up," then they should be returned as defective. Thats just my thought.
 
CSue said:
Why can't he just return these to the store he bought them from and let you make him better pens?

If what he bought needs to be "fixed up," then they should be returned as defective. Thats just my thought.
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The faulty part is more well all to do with his turning and finishing and I did suggest he return them but his reply was. If this is the quality of his work he sells what would be the quality of his work on a repair job that he will get no extra money for? and I can understand where he is coming from.
 
Obviously the client has grown fond of the pens. He is also a collector.

I would first explain how disassembly could ruin the pen, not just the working but also the wood. While you will try your best, there is no guarantee of success. Most likely you will have to sand or skew the finish off which will bring the wood below the fittings requiring you to build up CA to be the proper diameter. You will attempt this if he understands the risks. Price is your call. I would give him a base amount and vary by the amount of time it takes you.
 
I would take the opportunity(sp?) to to show off. He already nows what the pen looks like when he puchased it from the other turner, Now you can show him your skills. I would take the pen apart, no guarantees mind you, finish better than the other turner with an upgraded 8.00 dollar kit. Either charge the price of the kit or free depending on how good a customer he is. Being that he bought some from you before Id go with a free repair, its just time and bout 10 bucks of supplies.......FWW
 
Im like el d, if hes that good a customer and has paid $200 or more for your pens, whats a free repair if it works out. I think it will only pull him back to you next time he decides to spend that kind of money for someone elses work that has to be fixed. I would remind him that you can take requests and are willing to do custom orders. In business reputation means everything.
 
I think I'm with everyone else on this. It's a good customer, it will cost you little or
nothing to attempt it, the customer already knows he didn't get the best quality,
and if you can turn the sow's ear into the silk purse, you'll be a hero.

Actually, charging money for it wouldn't be a good idea.. it would force you both
to put a monetary value to an intangible. Your cost would mostly be in labor,
but how do you put a price on skill and experience?
 
I was not thinking of charging him for my time just any expense that may occur e.g replace the twist mechanism but that is minimal anyway.
The turning is all over the place so I think I will need to use CA to build it back up again in places.
I will post the before and after pics so you can see.
 
Not that I wish to stir the pot, but I'm not sure I agree with everyone on this issue. If you look at the question, and not the situation there is an ethical as well as respect issue involved I think.

Would you ever modify someone else's work?

Ignore the fact of good client or bad, shoddy work or masterpiece, money involved or not. Said another way, would you want someone else to modify your work without your knowledge? Besides the fact of them being paid to do so.

I think at the very least, if I was the craftsman whose piece was being modified, I would want to know about it and have the opportunity to give my approval of the change so that I can have the feedback and work at ironing out any kinks I have. As a member of pen community such as this one, I think my fellow woodturner/penmaker would take priority over another sale.

Just my opinion though, I don't mean to offend anyone here. I think I would agree with the tattoo artists in that I would not do work to someone else's pen.
 
I think the tattoo analogy is irrelevant. Unless a tattoo artist is also a cosmetic surgeon, they can't possibly "undo" the evils of the previous tattoo artist. At best, all they can do is add to an otherwise bad tattoo. No reputable tattoo artist wants the quality of their work to be diminished this way. At least we, as pen makers, can reverse the process, and replace parts and finishes to one degree or another.
 
I would inform the customer that undoing the pen may not work, but I would do the work and do it for free. As to allowing the other turner know or participate in the decision I would not open that can of worms. If the original turner sold the pen he thought that it was a good job. Once I sell something it no longer belongs to me and I don't have any say in what is done with it. It is the customer that owns it who decides if he wants it modified or changed.
I repair pens for customers, friends, etc that I haven't made, but they all know and understand that there are no guarantees that it will work.
 
As comment that pretty much covers any comment like "Why doesn't he just (do whatever)? It is not our place to decide what a customer should choose to do. He has obviously made his choice. Now He wants to know if you will be a part of his chosen solution to his problem.

On the original question in this thread. The issue of working on someone elses work is a complicated one. Am I simply repairing legitimate damage to someones work? Am I altering their work to be in my opinion better? Am I doing this on my own desire? Am I doing this at the request of the current owner of the work? The list goes on and on and each question and it's matching answer will hop you back and forth across the ethical line.
In this case you have the curent owner asking you to improve on the quality of the work. I see nothing unethical about doing so. basically I see this as the same thing as someone asking you to refinish or restore a piece of furniture. It does not even fall in the ball park of the unethical builiding on, copying or otherwise adding your work to someone elses.
 
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