Dye penetration in hard maple veneer

[AMBuilder]

Good morning folks.

My current occupation is builder of all things wood, and have come up against a road block with a current project.

I've been trying to dye 1/16" hard maple veneer via vacuum, just dye no stabilization. I've done limited trials with small samples in mason jars, with some good results. I've recently moved to a large stock pot to do the same process on the full sized sheets.

Only things which have been changed moving from the small jars to the big pot was time. Let the pump run for 4 or 5 hours (no bubbles as far as I could see) and let the pieces sit for 24 after vacuum was removed. The dye is aniline in a water carrier. Vacuum read 27", and I even added heat in a vain attempt to help penetration.
The outside of the veneer has a great colour, no colour at the inside at all.

Any tricks to get dye into a denser wood such as hard maple? Or am I missing something basic here?
Are there dyes which penetrate better? I know this stuff is dyed en mass for the skateboard industry, how do they manage?

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[jttheclockman]

switch to soft maple. Hardwoods that are less poress are very hard to dye. Man with water as your carrier that will warp the heck out of veneer. May try alcohol( denatured) You will always get splotchyness because of the grain and different hardness within the material. Trans tint dyes work well with wood.

 

[AMBuilder]

switch to soft maple. Hardwoods that are less poress are very hard to dye. Man with water as your carrier that will warp the heck out of veneer. May try alcohol( denatured) You will always get splotchyness because of the grain and different hardness within the material. Trans tint dyes work well with wood.

Many thanks for the reply,

Unfortunately, hard maple is speced for the project. In fact it is a skateboard we are building. The maple will be laminated within the skateboard so only the edge grain will be exposed, thus the necessity to dye through and through. Not concerned about warping as it will be laminated.

I've tried using methanol as a carrier. It reaches a boil when maximum vacuum is applied. Even with multiple traps I get some in my pump, and from what I understand that is not a good thing for my pump's health.
Is it a matter of using more meth to offset the evaporation and to hell with the pump?

I'll look into the trans tint, thanks for the tip.

I'd love to figure out how dyed veneer is produced industrially for the skateboard industry.

Once again, thank you. If anyone has more input it would be greatly appreciated... this has been a challenge for some time.

 

[KenV]

1/16 is considered "thick veneer" in todays lingo -- Thick veneer in dense wood is hard to get penetration without lots of pressure and heat.

Vacuum does not do a lot to help dye penetration with a boilable liquid like water or alcohol. The carrier boiling point decreases as pressure in the container decreases (or vacuum increases).

With really dense wood - nothing really achieves penetration.

Cactus Juice does not boil -- and vacuum works fairly well getting penetration, but works best with low density - punky woods.

Can you laminate thinner veneer -- standard is about 1/42nd of an inch or thinner. Some is now down to about 1/80th of an inch.

Think of the wood as a bundle of soda straws and you need to push the dye into the ends of the soda straws. Some has a very long way to travel.

 

[AMBuilder]

1/16 is considered "thick veneer" in todays lingo -- Thick veneer in dense wood is hard to get penetration without lots of pressure and heat.

Vacuum does not do a lot to help dye penetration with a boilable liquid like water or alcohol. The carrier boiling point decreases as pressure in the container decreases (or vacuum increases).

With really dense wood - nothing really achieves penetration.

Cactus Juice does not boil -- and vacuum works fairly well getting penetration, but works best with low density - punky woods.

Can you laminate thinner veneer -- standard is about 1/42nd of an inch or thinner. Some is now down to about 1/80th of an inch.

Think of the wood as a bundle of soda straws and you need to push the dye into the ends of the soda straws. Some has a very long way to travel.

Darn, I was hoping I was missing something.

Nominal thickness is 1/16" the particular pieces I have been working with have been sanded to 3/64". Could go a hair thinner.

Hm, should I be on the hunt for a carrier which has a higher boiling point in a vacuum? Only problem is I need something which will not interfere with the glue.
Or, do I need to add pressure to the system.
I'm not against investing in a large pressure pot, or some other high pressure vessel.

I have a sheet of bright pink 1/16" hard maple veneer sitting next to me... bright pink all the way through. It's driving me nuts!

I'm up for any off the wall suggestions.

 

[BSea]

Have you considered a professional stabilizing service? I know you don't need it stabilized, but if it didn't hurt, then you could have it dyed when it's stabilized. They use really high pressure vrs vacuum.

 

[AMBuilder]

Have you considered a professional stabilizing service? I know you don't need it stabilized, but if it didn't hurt, then you could have it dyed when it's stabilized. They use really high pressure vrs vacuum.

I've thought of it, but they whole shipping material down, shipping it back and paying for a service can really bump up my costs. A sheet of this veneer is about $0.90, I imagine it to go up 4 or 5 times if I had it done.

Ideally I want to be able to do this so I can switch up colours easily and offer it at a reasonable price.

But, can you recommend any services? Preferably here in Canada?
Or do you have any insight into the professional method? I am not afraid to reproduce it in house.

Thank you,

 

[BSea]

Have you considered a professional stabilizing service? I know you don't need it stabilized, but if it didn't hurt, then you could have it dyed when it's stabilized. They use really high pressure vrs vacuum.

I've thought of it, but they whole shipping material down, shipping it back and paying for a service can really bump up my costs. A sheet of this veneer is about $0.90, I imagine it to go up 4 or 5 times if I had it done.

Ideally I want to be able to do this so I can switch up colours easily and offer it at a reasonable price.

But, can you recommend any services? Preferably here in Canada?
Or do you have any insight into the professional method? I am not afraid to reproduce it in house.

Thank you,

The professional method involves pressures up to 5000 PSI, so it's not really anything that you can do in house. I don't know the whole precess, but the pressures involved eliminate most people.

Here are a few companies. I don't know of anyone in Canada, but I've never looked either. I also haven't checked into pricing in several years. I don't really know if it's a good option for you or not.

Woodstabilizer | Woodstabilizer

Wood Stabilizing Specialists, Int'l., LLC | Info, Hints, & Tips!

Hope this helps.

 

[jttheclockman]

switch to soft maple. Hardwoods that are less poress are very hard to dye. Man with water as your carrier that will warp the heck out of veneer. May try alcohol( denatured) You will always get splotchyness because of the grain and different hardness within the material. Trans tint dyes work well with wood.

Many thanks for the reply,

Unfortunately, hard maple is speced for the project. In fact it is a skateboard we are building. The maple will be laminated within the skateboard so only the edge grain will be exposed, thus the necessity to dye through and through. Not concerned about warping as it will be laminated.

I've tried using methanol as a carrier. It reaches a boil when maximum vacuum is applied. Even with multiple traps I get some in my pump, and from what I understand that is not a good thing for my pump's health.
Is it a matter of using more meth to offset the evaporation and to hell with the pump?

I'll look into the trans tint, thanks for the tip.

I'd love to figure out how dyed veneer is produced industrially for the skateboard industry.

Once again, thank you. If anyone has more input it would be greatly appreciated... this has been a challenge for some time.

First of all we as a forum or at least I will speak for myself have very little knowledge of what it is your are trying to do. I get it that you are trying to dye 1/16" veneer in maple. I assume you are trying to dye the entire piece the same color. I also will probably be pretty sure the ones you are looking to compare to are done industrial wise with much more sophisticated equipment to get the colors running through.

my suggestion would be to do a google search for some skateboard forums and ask these questions there. You could possibly also ask on true woodworking forums such as Wood.com and there are many others. But I know with those you will get answers such as I gave you because the veneers they work with are thinner and as far as dyes they do not use vacuum. They also just look to enhance wood grains and not color woods.

You mention end grain and again without a photo of what you are doing we can only speculate. But why not construct the skateboard and dye it after?? Why not paint it and then work the paint instead of staining. Then top coat with a varnish or lacquer or whatever your finish of choice is.

Sorry but that is all I have. Not sure if you will find anyone here building skateboards. The dyeing of woods and vacuums used here in the pen turning business is on a small scale. Good luck.

 

[AMBuilder]

First of all we as a forum or at least I will speak for myself have very little knowledge of what it is your are trying to do. I get it that you are trying to dye 1/16" veneer in maple. I assume you are trying to dye the entire piece the same color. I also will probably be pretty sure the ones you are looking to compare to are done industrial wise with much more sophisticated equipment to get the colors running through.

my suggestion would be to do a google search for some skateboard forums and ask these questions there. You could possibly also ask on true woodworking forums such as Wood.com and there are many others. But I know with those you will get answers such as I gave you because the veneers they work with are thinner and as far as dyes they do not use vacuum. They also just look to enhance wood grains and not color woods.

You mention end grain and again without a photo of what you are doing we can only speculate. But why not construct the skateboard and dye it after?? Why not paint it and then work the paint instead of staining. Then top coat with a varnish or lacquer or whatever your finish of choice is.

Sorry but that is all I have. Not sure if you will find anyone here building skateboards. The dyeing of woods and vacuums used here in the pen turning business is on a small scale. Good luck.

I've been googling as much as a I can, coming here was one of my last ditch efforts figuring you guys manage to infuse much thicker stock than I'm working with. Albeit much more pours material.

The purpose of the infusion is when a skateboard is laminated (essentially plywood) you will have one layer which is colour through and through. When the board is cut out, the single dyed layer will be visible on the edge of the board within the lamination. It's an esthetic thing, but requested.

Thank you everyone for your help, I'll try contacting some professional outfits and try your other suggestions.

May give pen turning a try in the future, more I browse this forum the more ideas I get.

 

[KenV]

I am getting from this thread that you are likely vacuum laminating or similar process to make the skateboard shape -- and the plastic infusion used in making soft wood hard, will leave it quite brittle with respect to forming against a curved mold/mandrel.

I am just starting to work more with inks -- there are a wide range of inks and colors including the inks used for stamp pads.

Hard maple will likely remain a challenge -- and even with high pressure plastic infusion processes, there remain places where the solutions do not penetrate in dense woods. For our small turnings, this is not a problem.

Good luck and come back to turn pens with us.

 

[jttheclockman]

Just a quick google search makes me think you can buy the materials a whole lot cheaper than what it will take you to make them. Sometimes it just does not pay. Build a skateboard deck or longboard using Roarockit Skateboard Company deck kits

Like i said I know nothing about skateboards but there seems to be a lot of books on making them so might be an avenue to look into or maybe even utube may have videos. I am sure there must be forums because there are forums for just about everything these days. Infusion of dyes, maybe do a search on that topic by itself. Good luck. Maybe if you do get into this you can make a pen that mimics the board and make sales that way too. People do this all the time with cabinet makers and such.

 

[Jim Burr]

Kinda wondering why you can't apply the dye prior to lamination. You only need nominal penetration. Assuming 6-8 ply, glue up each section, CNC the shape...1/16 off finish dimemtion, dye and glue up/vac press. Done and done...maybe?

 

[AMBuilder]

Kinda wondering why you can't apply the dye prior to lamination. You only need nominal penetration. Assuming 6-8 ply, glue up each section, CNC the shape...1/16 off finish dimemtion, dye and glue up/vac press. Done and done...maybe?

Wish it was so simple.
Dye penetration, even with the extensive vacuum infusion can be scuffed off with a bit more than a swipe of 120.

This is what i'm after. Each of the dyed layers are through and through, hopefully that will clear up any confusion.

Thank you for the input,
I've been looking through used pressure vessels for sale and have been reading through as much industry information and patent information I can find. Seems like if I can get the PH right, and up to a couple hundred psi I should get penetration. Now I just need to figure out which of my friends owns a rated pressure vessel to try out my theory.