Drying Prior to Stabilization

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Harpazo

Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
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137
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First off, I'm new to casting and stabilizing but I'm working on gathering wood and equipment in order to begin. I have a supply of spalted and ambrosia maple that I'm cutting and drying and thought others might enjoy hearing how I'm going about this. Constructive criticism welcome!

After I cut my wood to size (all under 1.5" thick) I place it in my Excalibur food dehydrator for 24 hours at the hottest setting (165F but that's a whole 'nuther discussion) After 24 hours the wood should all be reading well under 10% moisture. I assume closer to 3 or 4% or less. At this point I'm vacuum sealing the hot blanks straight out of the dehydrator and into the vacuum ziplock style bags for temporary storage. The bags can handle boiling water so that should be fine to let them just cool down there. They'll stay nice and dry inside.

Then, just prior to juicing them with Cactus Juice I will pre-heat the blanks to boiling temp to off-gas the last remaining moisture, wait to cool down then submerge in the vacuum chamber for the recommended time, bake them in a toaster oven or maybe in the dehydrator if it will get hot enough to cure the resin. Like I said, I'm totally new to this and might be getting it wrong but there ya' go...
 
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It looks like it will be fine. Maybe a little more work than necessary. Preheating to boiling temp in the second paragraph--you don't mention how long-- will probably not do much for you unless you do it for many hours. In this case, it would be easier to just put the blanks in the toaster oven at 215° F for 24 hrs and be done with it. Then take them out and place them in ziplock bags to cool down.

I doubt the dehydrator will get hot enough to cure. The minimum internal temp of the blanks needs to be 180° F. I usually recommend an air temp in the oven of 200° F.
 
Let me try to clarify... Assuming I have nearly all the moisture out already I figured I would only need a short amount of time at boiling to steam off the remaining moisture and I figured that a 1" thick pience of wood will be up to 212F in an hour. If it reaches 212F there's no more water left, only steam at much less density and at an insignificant moisture level. My dehydrator draws little power & can handle nearly 10 times the amount of wood that my toaster oven can so a large batch can cook for 24 hours. The toaster oven can handle 10 pen blanks at once to both flash steam moisture off, and later after juicing, heat cure the resin at the right temperature also. The dehydrator is just a very efficient, predictable, and measurable appliance that is perfectly suited for dyring things evenly and slowly over several hours. The toaster oven is convenient and quick but small. Together it seems they will work very nicely. We'll see...
 
robertkulp said:
Curtis has some great videos on his TurnTex website.

TurnTex Woodworks - TurnTex Woodworks Penturning Resources
Click to expand...

Yes, Curtis has indeed contributed tremendously to the "craft". I've become quite familiar with his processes and I'm fascinated with the idea of making use of some of the incredible figured wood I have at my disposal and this will help me turn worthless wood into treasures. My Cactus Juice setup should all get here this week and I'll have a bunch of maple to practice with.

Thanks for the link Robert.
 
Scott - the heating to boiling may make a little difference, but not much and them not without a lot of time. 212 degrees F is the boiling point - then you have to had the additional calories for the latent heat of vaporization -- that energy needed to convert the liquid water into vapor. That will require heat above 212 or a lot of time.

Curtis is suggesting 3 degrees above boiling and a long time to vaporize water and allow it to move out of the wood. That may be a tad bit on the low side to provide the heat exchange -- though the long times help. Convection oven even better.

You cannot beat the latent heat of vaporization
 
I'm a little confused, but I'll try to clarify.

First, dry out the wood. A dehydrator is one method that can be used for this.
Second, seal the wood in a ziplock or Food Saver bag to prevent the wood from absorbing moisture while cooling.
Third, vacuum stabilize the wood with CJ.
Fourth, after the vacuum is released and the wood has fully absorbed all CJ it can, cure them in an oven that can maintain 200 degrees.

Random notes:
Get a reliable wood moisture meter. Without one, you really don't know what the wood's MC% is. They run about $30 and are well worth it.

There is no need to double-dry the wood. The dehydrator should bring the MC low enough. Use the Moisture Meter to check.

If the dehydrator's max temp is only 165, as Curtis mentioned, it won't work for curing the resin.

Personally, I take the lazy approach. I dry the wood in the house. Gas heat in the winter will bring pen blanks down to 5% fairly quickly. I can then blast it in the microwave a little, if needed. Then I vacuum in CJ over night. I release the vacuum in the morning and let them soak all day, while I'm at work. That evening, I bake them at 200 for a few hours, turning the toaster oven off before I go to bed.

This spring, I might get a dehydrator since I won't be running the heat. While the temp matters, it doesn't matter as much as you might think. What really matters is that dry air pass over the blanks to extract the moisture. Think of placing a box fan to blow over wet carpet. That air isn't anywhere near 165, yet the carpet dries out much more quickly with the fan.

Curtis has taught me a lot and corrected some of my errors. He and others here are a wealth of information and help..
 
A couple of points of clarification...I recommend 215° F for 24 hours to dry the blanks. This is roughly based on ASTM D4442 Standard Test Method for Direct Moisture Content Measurement of Wood and Wood-Based Materials. This standard is what is used when testing wood. The difference in the standard and what I recommend is the standard calls for a temperature of 217° F and I say 215° F! It is just easier to tell folks 215. Also, the ASTM standard is to run it at 217° F for 24 hours, then weigh the material. Then put it back in for a period of time and take it out and weight it again. Keep doing this until you get 2 consecutive readings that are the same. At that point, you are oven dry or 0% moisture. I don't usually tell folks to do the additional weighing since I have found that 24 hours is usually sufficient for everything I have tested.

As for the moisture meter suggestion...I am sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. Moisture meters are only effective down to 6%. Anything less than that and they are not accurate. All of the major meter manufacturers will tell you that. Also, moisture meters are factory calibrated to the specific gravity of Douglas Fir, the USDA standard. They are also factory calibrated to a wood temperature of 70°F. To get an accurate reading on anything other than Douglas Fir, you have to apply a correction factor from a chart supplied with your meter for the wood you are checking. Most folks don't know where their owner's manual is, let alone the chart! Then, if you want a really accurate reading, you have to correct for temperature as well!

Of course, for our purposes, all we care is that the wood has as little moisture in it as possible. To get the best results stabilizing, anything more than 0% moisture content is too much! Your meter will not read accurate below 6%, thus the comment against the moisture meter! Sure, you can stabilize up to 10% or so but notice I said to get the best results! Personally, if I am going to do something, I am going to do it to the best of my abilities and in this case, it will be at 0% moisture. I typically put my blanks in the oven at 215° or so for 24-48 hours and never have any of the issues typically associated with moisture while stabilizing.
 
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robertkulp said:
Then I vacuum in CJ over night. I release the vacuum in the morning and let them soak all day
Click to expand...

Not sure if you are saying you pull vacuum and hold it overnight or if you keep your pump running all night. If you are only pulling it down and holding vac by closing a valve and turning off your pump, you are not getting as much air out of the wood as you could and doing your stabilizing a disservice! As soon as you turn off the pump, the pressures inside the chamber start to equalize and the pull from the vacuum goes down. Remember, the more air we can get out of the blanks, the more Juice we can get back in.

To test this, pull a chamber down to full vac and close the valve and allow it to set. After the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, turn the pump back on and open the valve. As soon as you do, the blanks will start foaming all over again as if they have never had vacuum on them! That is why I refuse to put a valve on my chambers between the pump and chamber.
 
I leave the pump running. If I start it early enough and there are no more bubbles, I'll release it and let it soak over night. Usually, though,I start rather late and just leave it running till the morning.

Interesting comments about drying to 0%. Never quit listening. Never quit learning.

Thanks for the info.

P.S. This is why I like these forums so much. The vendors/experts are here and willing to help the rest of us. "Thanks, Curtis" for this advice and all the other help and advice you've given over the years. Thanks for great products, too.
 
You are always welcome, Robert! I may be a vendor but I am an IAP member first and foremost! I got my start here at IAP and if it was not for IAP, I would probably still be building custom homes and hating every minute of it!
 
My procedure pretty much mirrors Robert Kulps....I dry on my boiler in winter and use a dehydrator in the summer. I no longer use the microwave after filling the house with smoke and ruining a few sweet burl blanks.....not to mention an unhappy Mrs....
 
I can't tell if you are talking about fresh wood from the log, or air dried lumber to start? If too aggressive with the heat at the start, you are going to crack a lot of wood.
 
low_48 said:
I can't tell if you are talking about fresh wood from the log, or air dried lumber to start? If too aggressive with the heat at the start, you are going to crack a lot of wood.
Click to expand...

My recommendations are always for air dried wood. Green wood will certainly crack and move like crazy like you mention.
 
Keep practicing

I have been really booked for the last few months; but, I have been following Curtis's recommendations and gaining success with stabilizing. Yes, make sure very dry (24 hours at 200 works!!), cool carefully in a Ziploc bag, then vacuum to no bubbles, and let soak 12 hours or more. Baking at 200 works!! I am definitely gaining success this way.
 
I was hoping to have an update on my setup but my order for the Cactus Juice and Large Chamber is lost in the FedEx maze of mis-information. Ordered on the 29th of Dec. and the tracking status was going just fine until it got to about 50 miles away (the final stop before my house) and just keeps bouncing status from on the truck for delivery, to N/A, and back. As far as Craft Supplies goes it's now past the Service Level Agreement time allowed by the shipper for the cost of shipping. And so I wait, and wait, and the information is not just inadequate, it's misleading. My love affair for Craft Supplies may be just about over. The tech support rep I talked to there was nice enough but I (minutes ago) gave her all the info I've posted here and I was advised to wait until FedEx had another day to get it here. Huh?! :-(
 
And just to be clear...the Cactus Juice and chamber came from Craft Supplies, one of my authorized retailers, rather than directly from me, TurnTex Woodworks. Same product, just from a different source.
 
Oh, and how can you be mad with CSUSA when the issue is with Fedex? From what you posted, CSUSA fulfilled their obligation by shipping your package in a timely manner. Once it got in Fedex's hands, it is out of their control and they do not have any more information than you do. They see the exact same tracking info that you are seeing! Also, it has only been 3 business days since it was shipped. Not sure about Fedex since I don't use them but UPS was off the 31st and the 1st.
 
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MesquiteMan said:
And just to be clear...the Cactus Juice and chamber came from Craft Supplies, one of my authorized retailers, rather than directly from me, TurnTex Woodworks. Same product, just from a different source.
Click to expand...

Well then I might just have to switch! I've had really good service from Craft Supplies so far. It's just frustrating to have to deal with FedEx. Anytime you have to deal with a multi-national multi-tiered monstrosity like that the little guy is lost in the shuffle and fed an endless loop of useless instructions to "go here & do this then go there and do that" all the time they know full well they are obfuscating the quick and easy way to resolve the issue (i.e. talk to a real person who can actually DO something about resolving an issue).

Sorry for the rant... I was just looking forward to getting started with stabilization and casting. Since my recent heart operation I haven't been able to do much of anything and this was to be something I could do with all the maddening restrictions on getting around. Maybe I should just cancel the order and use the money to pay some medical bills. Haha!
 
Hmmm, after a tech call and voila!, another update at FedEx. Those of you who track packages online may have seen this status but I never have before. This is just minutes ago! I don't know if Craft Supllies was able to contact them but it looks like the package may be out of the dreaded "Rural Ohio New Year's Party" black hole. I guess I'll find out tomorrow.
 

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MesquiteMan said:
Oh, and how can you be mad with CSUSA when the issue is with Fedex? From what you posted, CSUSA fulfilled their obligation by shipping your package in a timely manner. Once it got in Fedex's hands, it is out of their control and they do not have any more information than you do. They see the exact same tracking info that you are seeing! Also, it has only been 3 business days since it was shipped. Not sure about Fedex since I don't use them but UPS was off the 31st and the 1st.
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I thought CSUSA did an ok job handling the tech support call. Exceptional service (for an order that has quite clearly been delayed beyond that forecast by software they provided for me in email status updates etc.) would have been to send out a replacement order just for good customer service. The problem was already in their hands. Any loss due to failed SLA terms between CSUSA and FedEx would be a reimbursement of the shipping cost to CSUSA and not to me. That's a big difference in my humble opinion. Knowing the problem is not between me and FedEx or me and them it would have been far more customer service oriented for CSUSA to send the replacement and deal directly with FedEX themselves. I've already said I like CSUSA and am happy with their service.

Sorry if I seem overly critical but I do think I understand how things work. I think the screen shot of my package on FedEx's tracking site is adequate. An obvious exception has occurred and the SLA has not been met. An error like this would likely get some management attention at FedEx when they get their daily SLA update. What management will want to know is "What happened?" and a good company will get to the bottom of the issue and resolve it. I just want to stabilize some pen blanks and stay alive.
 
CSUSA should send out another complete package because the original is a day late?

unbelievable.

if it was lost - yes. but a day late? and right in the middle of a massive ice storm over a good chunk of Texas (and who knows how much of the central US) and New Years Day when most businesses are closed?

again unbelievable.
 
One thing to remember...

Under CSUSA's new shopping model, you probably paid $13.95 for shipping(any order over $150). This is an exceptional rate for an order as heavy as a jug of cactus juice + chamber, etc. No other vendor will ship a gallon of CJ for under $20. They can't because actual shipping costs are more than that. So in the end, you get a break on shipping charges from CSUSA. They also cannot control that you ordered it during the busiest time of year for shipping, over a holiday, and during an ice storm. I suggest cutting your losses and enjoy stabilizing....for me it's very relaxing:)
 
NittanyLion said:
One thing to remember...

No other vendor will ship a gallon of CJ for under $20. They can't because actual shipping costs are more than that.
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I ship 1-2 gallons per Large Flat Rate USPS box every day for $15.54 (my cost, I am NOT loosing money) and if it is only one gallon and going UPS, it is frequently less than that. I do agree that you will not get a gallon and a chamber for $13.95 from anyone else and even CSUSA is most likely loosing money on that one but they are making up for it on others.
 
Harpazo said:
MesquiteMan said:
Oh, and how can you be mad with CSUSA when the issue is with Fedex? From what you posted, CSUSA fulfilled their obligation by shipping your package in a timely manner. Once it got in Fedex's hands, it is out of their control and they do not have any more information than you do. They see the exact same tracking info that you are seeing! Also, it has only been 3 business days since it was shipped. Not sure about Fedex since I don't use them but UPS was off the 31st and the 1st.
Click to expand...

I thought CSUSA did an ok job handling the tech support call. Exceptional service (for an order that has quite clearly been delayed beyond that forecast by software they provided for me in email status updates etc.) would have been to send out a replacement order just for good customer service. The problem was already in their hands. Any loss due to failed SLA terms between CSUSA and FedEx would be a reimbursement of the shipping cost to CSUSA and not to me. That's a big difference in my humble opinion. Knowing the problem is not between me and FedEx or me and them it would have been far more customer service oriented for CSUSA to send the replacement and deal directly with FedEX themselves. I've already said I like CSUSA and am happy with their service.

Sorry if I seem overly critical but I do think I understand how things work. I think the screen shot of my package on FedEx's tracking site is adequate. An obvious exception has occurred and the SLA has not been met. An error like this would likely get some management attention at FedEx when they get their daily SLA update. What management will want to know is "What happened?" and a good company will get to the bottom of the issue and resolve it. I just want to stabilize some pen blanks and stay alive.
Click to expand...

You have not told us what service level you paid for. If you paid for ground, there is no expectation and no guarantees of delivery times. That is why the tracking info always shows ESTIMATED delivery date rather than PROMISED delivery date. Now if you paid an extra fee for 3 day select or quicker then they have not met their obligation and CSUSA can get credit back and should pass it back to you.

If they had shipped you another package like you expect them to do to maintain superior customer service, you would still most likely get the other first unless they shipped it overnight air. In that case, they are looking at a cost of around $120 for that size and weight package for the shipping plus paying to get the first package shipped back to them! I just looked up my cost to ship a 20# box to your area via UPS next day saver and it is $127.74!:eek: Their cost is less I am sure but mine is cheaper than you can get off the street since I have negotiated rates like they do.
 
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CSUSA shipped the package to me FedEX Ground. But I'd rather be stabilizing wood blanks. :) Happy New Year everyone.
 
NittanyLion said:
One thing to remember...

Under CSUSA's new shopping model, you probably paid $13.95 for shipping(any order over $150). This is an exceptional rate for an order as heavy as a jug of cactus juice + chamber, etc. No other vendor will ship a gallon of CJ for under $20. They can't because actual shipping costs are more than that. So in the end, you get a break on shipping charges from CSUSA. They also cannot control that you ordered it during the busiest time of year for shipping, over a holiday, and during an ice storm. I suggest cutting your losses and enjoy stabilizing....for me it's very relaxing:)
Click to expand...

I will enjoy stabilizing when my Cactus Juice and TurnTex vacuum chamber arrive. I've been planning this for weeks. The workshop has never been better organized ;-)
 
MesquiteMan said:
The Penguin said:
And CJ has to be ground shipped, right?

that would likely also explain the delay
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NO, it can ship by air.
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Curtis. I respectfully disagree that ground shipping implies less reliable service than that stated in the service level. Why don't we all just wait for the status of the missing package to proceed beyond the FedEx official delivery website. SLA seems clear enough to me to expect what I'm expecting. So, stay tuned and I will (lord willing) update later in the day.
 
Regardless of shipping method, all the carriers have exceptions that invalidate their SLA. Items beyond their control such as weather, labor strikes, etc. will enable the carrier to avoid refunding any shipping costs (been there, done that).

As previously mentioned, Standard Ground and Economy shipping are not subject to any guarantees from the carrier or from the vendor. What's really annoying are those that complain about the Economy Shipping from various vendors (not just the big guys) taking too long. Folks, you get what you pay for. Granted, I have had packages take almost two weeks to go from Memphis to Nashville with Amazon's free shipping, but it was free. I've since purchased their Prime to automatically upgrade to 2-day shipping. Again, you get what you pay for.

Having said all of that, I'm not a fan of FedEx and have seen them revise guaranteed delivery dates (yes, there was an SLA) due to weather and other circumstances. As to what happened, maybe this...
 

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Harpazo said:
MesquiteMan said:
The Penguin said:
And CJ has to be ground shipped, right?

that would likely also explain the delay
Click to expand...

NO, it can ship by air.
Click to expand...

Curtis. I respectfully disagree that ground shipping implies less reliable service than that stated in the service level. Why don't we all just wait for the status of the missing package to proceed beyond the FedEx official delivery website. SLA seems clear enough to me to expect what I'm expecting. So, stay tuned and I will (lord willing) update later in the day.
Click to expand...

You may have mixed up your reply here! I only posted that it can ship by air.

Normal ground is certainly not less reliable but does take longer. Then, if it is Ground Home Delivery, you are in a completely different boat with FedUp! The Ground Home Delivery folks are contract delivery and NOT employees of FedUp. I have such terrible service from Ground Home Delivery that I will not accept any packages shipped that way. I have a long driveway and they have left packages under a tree 50' off the driveway, 1/2 of the way up the driveway, sitting on top of a drainage pipe where my driveway crosses a creek in the middle of a flood with the water lapping at the bottom of the package, and three streets over at a completely different address. Every time I used to get packaged delivered by them, it would be a guessing game as to where the package actually was delivered. I got a hold of the unpublished terminal supervisor's number and would call and complain and things would get better for a while. Then the driver would change or even the contract company would change and it woudl go to hell again! Finally gave up.

So, stick with it, your package will finally show up somewhere! They are still within their estimated delivery time for ground which is 1 week.
 
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It's beginning to look like I'll be calling my good friends over at Craft Supplies. Yes, boys and girls, there has been no delivery yet today. Lessee... it's almost 5pm, 2 hours yet to deliver, no change in online status, and no package! Then, quick, call CSUSAs customer service line, report the problem (again) and this time (as per their saying to do so on the last call). Now my package will arrive in the promised SLA (7 days correct?). If I'd have only been inclined to contact Curtis directly to order I would have. Now I know it's an option.

But Hey, I'm a happy camper. After the past 6 months I've been through this is small potatoes. Plus it's way more fun than a hospital room and I get to make friends with all you fine folks. :)
 
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Well here's just how much I appreciate everyone here. I'm posting that my FedEx package arrived and I haven't even opened it. I'll save the surprise for later. Gotta make the trek with it out to the shop through deep snow :) and I'm weak 'cuz I haven't had dinner yet. So... are ya happy for me??? :D
 
Ah... much better. After a quick supper I opened the box and it looks like everything is in order. Pretty cool little setup. I have a lot of spalted maple blanks that I'll be playing with. If anyone would like to try making a pen from one let me know. If you send me a SASE I can put a stabilized blank in for you to turn. I think it would be great if a few of us would take the challenge and post pictures of the results. Shoot me a PM and I'll let you know where to send the envelope. If you need a special size I can see what I have. Happy turning, stabilizing, or whatever you do!
 
After inspection I can see that this is made of quality parts and materials. No reason at all for me to be anything but satisfied. Now, a question for Curtis if I may...

The instructions say to leave blanks in the CJ for 2x the vacuuming time. However, If I'm ready to stabilize another batch I'd rather not wait for them to soak in the vacuum chamber. I also realize that they are still drawing CJ until pressures equalize therefore I need to keep them submerged. My question is: Are there any recommended techniques to get them out of the chamber and into a secondary submerged-soak bath without them sucking air back into the blanks?

I assume some of you that are familiar with the process from first hand experience would know and could advise me on how I could get them out of the chamber without sucking air. Thanks kindly, in advance.
 
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Harpazo said:
After inspection I can see that this is made of quality parts and materials. No reason at all for me to be anything but satisfied. Now, a question for Curtis if I may...

The instructions say to leave blanks in the CJ for 2x the vacuuming time. However, If I'm ready to stabilize another batch I'd rather not wait for them to soak in the vacuum chamber. I also realize that they are still drawing CJ until pressures equalize therefore I need to keep them submerged. My question is: Are there any recommended techniques to get them out of the chamber and into a secondary submerged-soak bath without them sucking air back into the blanks?

I assume some of you that are familiar with the process from first hand experience would know and could advise me on how I could get them out of the chamber without sucking air. Thanks kindly, in advance.
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Let them soak for about 30 minutes and then transfer them. The majority of the resin uptake occurs within the first 30 minutes and starts tapering off after that. I still would not dilly dally around when moving them over. I woudl pick the chamber up and pour the Juice out and into your soak container, using the NoFloat as a strainer. Then pop out the NoFloat and dump the blanks into the soak container and weigh them down. You will be just fine.

Be sure to let me know if you have any other questions or need any help along the way. Always willing to help insure your success any way I can!
 
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