Cross-blending stains?

[jrista]

This might be a bit of an unusual question, as I don't think people generally stain their pens. This question is partly about small turned items, like bottle stoppers and other things, and maybe some pens. Mostly small turned items though.

I've been fiddling with the idea of cross-blending different stains together to create a gradient. I have not had the greatest luck so far...I think because the stains are drying so quickly. That seems to be a theme for me here in Colorado...I don't know if it is the humidity, or perhaps just the altitude and air thickness, but boy, things dry FAST up here. Makes finishing a challenge a lot of the time, including with CA finishes (which I've largely been able to manage, but some times a CA finish is just dry and cured before I'm able to spread it all the way over the blank.)

I haven't been able to find many (well, any, really) resources on this. No videos or articles. Maybe what I am trying to do, is really just not generally possible. Thus far, instead of actually blending different stains together, because of how quickly they seem to dry, its more that I layer one stain over the other. That doesn't quite "blend" the stains together the way I had hoped, so I don't quite get the gradient look... Instead, it looks like one stain layered on top of another.

I'm curious if anyone has ever tried this before? Is there a trick to it? I've tried thinning, which I thought might improve the rate of drying to allow me to achieve my goals. Sadly, Colorado followed California in banning almost all useful thinners and other VoCs, so the only things I can really get are mineral spirit paint thinners, "low odor" mineral spirits (which seem to screw up EVERYTHING I have ever tried to thin with...I don't know if this stuff is actually mineral spirits or something else, but its horrid...and I have a gallon of the stuff now!!), turpentine, and these various low VoC gel strippers (which are pretty much useless for anything except actually stripping paint or poly or what have you.) So thinning...hasn't really worked, in fact most of the time it seems to speed up the drying. Either that, or it just makes a sticky mess.

Anyway. When I first ventured off on this little quest, I figured someone out there had to have done it before. I've been quite surprised to find that, it seems no one does? OR at least, no one writes about it or has created any videos on how they do it. Thanks for any insights!

 

[Dieseldoc]

Following, as I have the same question.

 

[Drewby108]

I have had marginal success on a couple maple wands. It was less blending the stains at the same time, though. I put down a dark stain first, then sanded in a gradient. After I wiped the dust, I applied my other, lighter, stain. It was not amazing, but it did work a little.

 

[RGABEL]

I have "blended" different color dyes on turnings. I dye the wood and then lightly sand (320 usually) which helps blend the overlaps so it is not a hard line between them.

 

[JohnU]

I've had luck with thinning the dye down with alcohol so it isn't such a bold color on the first application. Sometimes you have to apply the same color over itself to get the deep color wanted but it layers easier without leaving the divided line. Also, make sure you start with the lightest color and overlap with darker.

 

[bugradx2]

I've seen the guys from Woodsmith Shop do blended stains to arrive at a color in between two shades but not gradient. I think the two methods outlined here might be what I would try.

What kind of wood are you trying to stain? That could be part of the issue.

John's method of applying the stain in cumulative batches should allow it to build a different depth of stain along a workpiece. I would experiment with a larger workpiece (like a rolling pin but that may be overkill) to play around with it and allow you some margin for color bleed. Maybe even try a literal 1x4 board of the material to see what happens.

I've done the sand dark and sand to light before but not for the end result you're seeking. I've done it on a couple curly maple pens and what happens is the stripe retains most of the stain while the "regular" grain lightens up considerably (pic below).

One final thought I've seen that influences what happens with stains and any level of finish is how high you sand. The higher you sand prior to adding a finish the less of it is likely to absorb into the workpiece. You might want to try and sand lower than you normally would, stain/finish application and then seal it in with CA. If you had a few layers of CA on it then it would cover up any slight roughness you'd feel from the wood.

Whatever you do, please document it because I would love to see what process you went through and what the different results were.

 

[jrista]

Sanding grit is definitely a factor in my experience. I originally went up to 600, however with Norton, the 600 wet/dry seems to actually be finer than the 800. The two are also backed by different papers...400 and 600 wet/dry are yellow paper, while 800 and up are blue (all with a black grit.) So, I started sanding to 320 or 400, and stopping there.

John mentioned dye... I did watch some YT videos on a guy using these alcohol based dyes, particularly with this rich red color, and the dye does seem to be different than stain. I haven't tried dyes. I spend a bit of money on a variety of different stains, and that's been my budget for now. With normal stains, I guess I haven't tried sanding the area I want to blend. I was trying to get two different stains to blend together wet. I'll see how letting the first color dry with some sanding at the gradient crossover before adding the second color works.

I am curious, what are the best woods to stain?

 

[jttheclockman]

Dyes and stains are definitely two different things. The grit you sand to will effect the depth of dye or stain as mentioned. You would get better results with dyes. Stains sits on top of wood as with dyes they penetrate the wood. So be careful when explaining the use of stains. Not the same thing.

 

[Jarod888]

This might be a bit of an unusual question, as I don't think people generally stain their pens. This question is partly about small turned items, like bottle stoppers and other things, and maybe some pens. Mostly small turned items though.

I've been fiddling with the idea of cross-blending different stains together to create a gradient. I have not had the greatest luck so far...I think because the stains are drying so quickly. That seems to be a theme for me here in Colorado...I don't know if it is the humidity, or perhaps just the altitude and air thickness, but boy, things dry FAST up here. Makes finishing a challenge a lot of the time, including with CA finishes (which I've largely been able to manage, but some times a CA finish is just dry and cured before I'm able to spread it all the way over the blank.)

I haven't been able to find many (well, any, really) resources on this. No videos or articles. Maybe what I am trying to do, is really just not generally possible. Thus far, instead of actually blending different stains together, because of how quickly they seem to dry, its more that I layer one stain over the other. That doesn't quite "blend" the stains together the way I had hoped, so I don't quite get the gradient look... Instead, it looks like one stain layered on top of another.

I'm curious if anyone has ever tried this before? Is there a trick to it? I've tried thinning, which I thought might improve the rate of drying to allow me to achieve my goals. Sadly, Colorado followed California in banning almost all useful thinners and other VoCs, so the only things I can really get are mineral spirit paint thinners, "low odor" mineral spirits (which seem to screw up EVERYTHING I have ever tried to thin with...I don't know if this stuff is actually mineral spirits or something else, but its horrid...and I have a gallon of the stuff now!!), turpentine, and these various low VoC gel strippers (which are pretty much useless for anything except actually stripping paint or poly or what have you.) So thinning...hasn't really worked, in fact most of the time it seems to speed up the drying. Either that, or it just makes a sticky mess.

Anyway. When I first ventured off on this little quest, I figured someone out there had to have done it before. I've been quite surprised to find that, it seems no one does? OR at least, no one writes about it or has created any videos on how they do it. Thanks for any insights!

Honestly, I might just make a trip up to Wyoming and pick up some cans of real solvent. However, I think thinning may be the problem. The thinner the stain, the faster it will dry. That's one of the reasons that lacquer sanding sealer is cut 50:50 with lacquer thinner. It cuts the drying time significantly. Oil based stains will always take longer to dry. I have some thoughts on ho to approach creating a gradient, but I would need to expirement with the process first.

 

[Dieseldoc]

Honestly, I might just make a trip up to Wyoming and pick up some cans of real solvent. However, I think thinning may be the problem. The thinner the stain, the faster it will dry. That's one of the reasons that lacquer sanding sealer is cut 50:50 with lacquer thinner. It cuts the drying time significantly. Oil based stains will always take longer to dry. I have some thoughts on ho to approach creating a gradient, but I would need to expirement with the process first.

Patick: Ever try dye rather than stain? I have found better control with developing a gradient with dye.

 

[Jarod888]

I've considered it, but not much expirementation in that rhelm. Currently, it's been more of a developing thought and "for the future" project. I think there is a lot to be explored in this arena and hopefully something will come from it.

 

[jrista]

I've considered it, but not much expirementation in that rhelm. Currently, it's been more of a developing thought and "for the future" project. I think there is a lot to be explored in this arena and hopefully something will come from it.

Well, lets keep this thread updated if either of us makes any progress.

I will hopefully be able to give it another try this weekend. I have some very dry wood that I'll be turning some vases from. I think, what I'll probably do, is just round the blanks out first, then try some practice runs with the staining techniques. That way I can turn off the trials if they don't work, and not totally waste the wood if I'm unsuccessful.

I did figure that thinning could make things dry faster. For most thinners that's the case, however with the mineral spirits (or at least, what I thought was mineral spirits) that stuff seems to dry slower. So I had hoped it might help. But instead, the "odorless" mineral spirits just mucks things up, and will often make a sticky, poorly mixed mess. I don't know what that stuff really is, but, it is NOT like real true mineral spirits (which I guess have been banned here in CO!!! Freakin nanny state.)

I think what I'm going to try, is to round a blank here and apply the first coat of stain so I can let it fully dry. Then tomorrow, sand it down to create the gradient area, and try the second stain and let it fully dry. Hopefully I'll have some success.

 

[jttheclockman]

Well, lets keep this thread updated if either of us makes any progress.

I will hopefully be able to give it another try this weekend. I have some very dry wood that I'll be turning some vases from. I think, what I'll probably do, is just round the blanks out first, then try some practice runs with the staining techniques. That way I can turn off the trials if they don't work, and not totally waste the wood if I'm unsuccessful.

I did figure that thinning could make things dry faster. For most thinners that's the case, however with the mineral spirits (or at least, what I thought was mineral spirits) that stuff seems to dry slower. So I had hoped it might help. But instead, the "odorless" mineral spirits just mucks things up, and will often make a sticky, poorly mixed mess. I don't know what that stuff really is, but, it is NOT like real true mineral spirits (which I guess have been banned here in CO!!! Freakin nanny state.)

I think what I'm going to try, is to round a blank here and apply the first coat of stain so I can let it fully dry. Then tomorrow, sand it down to create the gradient area, and try the second stain and let it fully dry. Hopefully I'll have some success.

The problem you are creating is you are filling in the pores with the first stain. All you do when sanding is smooth the flat sections of the wood and not the grain. Dyes are thinner so you would have better luck with them. I have done something like you are talking about using Rit clothes dyes and alcohol. The best thing with those type dyes there is a ton of colors and you can just step down or step up in the color range. I am doing something like you talk about on a pen that hopefully I can finish this winter when I get back into pen making. But my base material is not wood. Wood stains are a different animal and controlling those will be tough. You may have a better chance with the gel wood stains if you go that route. They do make dye wood stains also or just use the dyes like trans tint liquid dyes.

 

[jrista]

The problem you are creating is you are filling in the pores with the first stain. All you do when sanding is smooth the flat sections of the wood and not the grain. Dyes are thinner so you would have better luck with them. I have done something like you are talking about using Rit clothes dyes and alcohol. The best thing with those type dyes there is a ton of colors and you can just step down or step up in the color range. I am doing something like you talk about on a pen that hopefully I can finish this winter when I get back into pen making. But my base material is not wood. Wood stains are a different animal and controlling those will be tough. You may have a better chance with the gel wood stains if you go that route. They do make dye wood stains also or just use the dyes like trans tint liquid dyes.

Yeah, I am sure there are limits to what I am trying to do with stains. That said, the stains I am working with in this particular case, are...maybe a different beast than the normal stains. They are these varathane "vintage" styled stains, and the ones I have are white, whitewash, foghorn gray, a darker gray, a blue jeans styled navy blue, and a soft turqoise. They are...milky, for lack of a better way to describe them. I don't know if they use pigments or dyes, probably pigments but its just a guess. I have found that they don't penetrate very deeply, though...so I am hoping with the right amount of sanding, that will help me create a decent blending zone where I can cross over the two.

I do intend to try some dyes. I was actually looking at some alcohol based dyes a while back when I first started this. The thing about the dyes that I've noticed in videos, though, is that pretty much the moment you touch your applicator to the wood, the dyes are bonding and penetrating. If you leave any dye mix on the wood for too long, without spreading it out (and it can be just seconds), then you'll see the shape of the mix in the wood, and that seems to often be the case no matter how much you try to spread things around and even the edges of it all out. I don't have any experience with dyes on wood, so while I do intend to give it a try, I want to try and master the current approach here...or at least exhaust the stains I've purchased.

I was just at our local hobby lobby, and you are indeed right... There are a TON of Rit clothes dyes!! Could serve pretty much any project, I suspect. I do wonder about the kind of thing I'm trying to do now, though, with these...lighter colored, pastel or softer toned stains. In the can they almost look like a pre-mixed milk paint, but thinner. However they don't co on like a milk paint, they definitely spread into the wood fibers a bit and take on the characteristic of the grain. But they are fairly thick and sit on top too, and I suspect that's pigments. Not sure if a dye would be able to serve the same purpose as that, at least for this particular idea.

 

[sorcerertd]

Whatever you do, please document it because I would love to see what process you went through and what the different results were.

Yes, this part.

My thought is to dip the item, and leave it upright. Dip it again, but not as deeply. Repeat. My intuition tells me that gravity would help the dye would form a bit of a gradient as the liquid pulls it down, causing more to absorb on the lower portions of the item. I certainly could be wrong, but it's another idea.

 

[bugradx2]

Ok.... hilariously ironic. When I got caught up on a back episode of The Woodsmith Shop tv show (PBS or youtube) today they had Jimmy Clewes on showing how he uses aniline dyes on turnings. He made the most beautiful platter and walked you through his process at a high level.

 

[bugradx2]

Dyes and stains are definitely two different things. The grit you sand to will effect the depth of dye or stain as mentioned. You would get better results with dyes. Stains sits on top of wood as with dyes they penetrate the wood. So be careful when explaining the use of stains. Not the same thing.

And now I have to walk back my post.... I just realized that I said stainless and used aniline dye. Thanks for reminding me

 

[bugradx2]

I've seen the guys from Woodsmith Shop do blended stains to arrive at a color in between two shades but not gradient. I think the two methods outlined here might be what I would try.

What kind of wood are you trying to stain? That could be part of the issue.

John's method of applying the stain in cumulative batches should allow it to build a different depth of stain along a workpiece. I would experiment with a larger workpiece (like a rolling pin but that may be overkill) to play around with it and allow you some margin for color bleed. Maybe even try a literal 1x4 board of the material to see what happens.

I've done the sand dark and sand to light before but not for the end result you're seeking. I've done it on a couple curly maple pens and what happens is the stripe retains most of the stain while the "regular" grain lightens up considerably (pic below).

One final thought I've seen that influences what happens with stains and any level of finish is how high you sand. The higher you sand prior to adding a finish the less of it is likely to absorb into the workpiece. You might want to try and sand lower than you normally would, stain/finish application and then seal it in with CA. If you had a few layers of CA on it then it would cover up any slight roughness you'd feel from the wood.

Whatever you do, please document it because I would love to see what process you went through and what the different results were.

View attachment 377347

I can't edit my post. I did not use stain on this pen, it was aniline dye. It was not mixed with alcohol as I wanted it full strength

 

[jrista]

Ok.... hilariously ironic. When I got caught up on a back episode of The Woodsmith Shop tv show (PBS or youtube) today they had Jimmy Clewes on showing how he uses aniline dyes on turnings. He made the most beautiful platter and walked you through his process at a high level.

I've watched a couple of videos of Clewes doing his dye stained platters. I do like them and want to try it at some point (sadly, it seems to be very hard to find the really good figured grain maple that his style works best on these days...even stuff labeld "AAA Figure" doesn't seem to have nearly the same amount or quality of figure as the platter blanks I was buying in 2020/2021.)

My specific goal at the moment is a little different, too. I am looking to create a blend of stains (or maybe dyes) in a specific way in a specific location on a turned piece. With the figured grain, the figure and sanding the right way helps distribute different dyes to different places. I am hoping that sanding in the right places, and keeping the wrong dyes off parts I dont want that color, will help me achieve my goals.

I am going to start a new piece today, and will try to document the process to share. I don't know how successful I'll be, but going to give it a whirl here.

 

[duncsuss]

If I were to try this ... I'd use water-soluble dyes sprayed on with an airbrush.

The gradient can be readily achieved by simply pulling the airbrush away from the target (so that a larger percentage of the spray pattern ends up hitting the back-board behind the lathe). Lathe on a decent speed so I'd get coverage around the barrel instead of a single spiral up the length of it.

Starting at the opposite end with a different color might lead to a gradient shift from one to the other.

 

[jrista]

Well, I've been experimenting with this a bit. I've been trying different applicators, to see if that might help me create a "lighter" coating on part of the piece, and a "darker" or "thicker" coating on another. Thus far, applicator does not really matter (although I find I have a bit more control with a foam brush). The way the stain applies is the same regardless, and there really is no way to "lightly" stain some parts of the wood and "heavily" stain others. You pretty much, at least with the stuff I am using (see photo below), get stain or no stain.

I have thus far not had great luck creating the transition zone. It may be because I am not producing a fine enough finish, and may also be due to the fact that the pieces of wood I've been playing with actually ended up having some figure, which creates variations in engrain vs. long grain, and of course the end grain picks up more stain and sucks it deeper into the wood. I think that blank selection is going to be very critical for this kind of staining, and non-figured, strait grained, moderately dense wood is probably going to be the best... I am honestly not sure if I have any such blanks, but have a heck of a lot of wood these days (recently met a tree cutter who has more wood than he can even deal with, and my wood stockpiles have grown beyond comprehension now... )

The piece pictured here was sanded to 600 grit, however it wasn't the best turning, so there are some fine streaks that are a bit rougher, and those will undoubtedly pick up more stain. I used a foam brush to apply. I did try to grade it, starting with some strokes just at the "bottom" (left end) about an inch or so down the blank, and then medium strokes starting at the bottom and a couple inches down, etc. That still didn't create any kind of gradation, and really just left me with dark solid lines at the ends of each stroke. So in the end, I ended up just stroking from the rightmost edge of where I wanted the end of the gradation to be, and stroked back to the far left end of the blank. I then let the stain soak in a bit, and finally (after the photo) wiped off the excess. Letting it dry now. I only did a portion of the blank, just to see how sanding out the stain in the gradient area works. If it seems to work, I'll stain the rest. You can see the stains I've used here...Varathane, softer pastel-like colors, light and dark. I guess the lightest color they have is this Antique White, but it is a rather bright white color (at least on the woods I've used it on so far, its whiter than the color appears on the can most of the time.) The Worn Navy is the darker base coat.

That is actually one thing I changed this time around. I WAS trying to apply the lighter stains first, then the darker. A couple of you recommended starting with the darker then the lighter, so that is what I am trying this time around.

I suspect...that in the long run, this is not going to be a great success. Given how the stain applies, and the effective impossibility of creating a gradation while brushing...unless, perhaps, the brush is EXTREMELY DRY (which I did fiddle with, and thus far have been unable to get the brush (any kind of brush) dry enough to work)...I doubt that coating the antique white over top the worn navy after a gradation area has been sanded in, is going to work all that well. I suspect that there is going to be a heavy edge to the white stain overtop the navy. It will probably require some additional sanding to deal with that...which........well, I don't think it will really quite create the look I'm after. But, I guess we'll see here in the next couple of days.

I would try dye...but, I don't think I've ever really seen white or other bright colored dyes that I think would work the way I'm intending. At least with these stains, which I'm sure are pigment based, the pigment particles will obscure what is beneath them... I don't think that a dye would really work the same way.

EDIT:

So, this first coat is not very comprehensive on the lower half. Before I sand it down and sand in the gradation area, I'm probably going to put a couple more coats on, to get a good thorough coating of stain on the part I want stained.

 

[jrista]

Ok! Some interesting progress. First, this is not the best wood to try this kind of stain blending on, the grain just doesn't have the right characteristic. I honestly don't know what the best woods would be, maybe someone with deeper knowledge might have some insights there. I think that woods with very simple, strait grains would be best, and probably not open grained woods (I tried on some open grained woods already, particularly elm...its ok in some ways, but not so great in others. Elm even with medium highish grits like 400 and 600, takes on an ULTRA smooth surface, and it looks great normally, but I think that may indeed limit stain penetration as well.)

Anyway... I decided to try something else for an applicator. I picked up these "rag-like" paper towels. Tore off a piece of a sheet, folded it over about 5 times, and then BARELY got any stain on it, and started rubbing around the end of the gradation area. This was a largely "dry" applicator, and I think it worked pretty well to create a softer, graded transition zone:

What do you guys think? I think its better at the top (I started at the bottom, and adjusted how I was doing things so that by the top, I think the graded area was best). I think this could also work to spread the lighter colored stain into the darker, by applying the lighter stain only to the top area, and ONLY dry-blending the stain from that area over the gradient area. I have to wait another hour or so here for this latest coat to dry, then I'll give the antique white stain a go on the top and see how this dry-blending technique works...

FWIW, I wanted a much heavier staining job. It doesn't look quite this bad (as in the photo above) in person, but you can still see the lighter wood through the stain in the bottom half pretty well. I wanted more of a complete coating. I may fiddle with that more on the other parts of this blank. I may leave a thicker coat of stain on the bottom parts and NOT wipe it off like the instructions state, and see how that goes in the end.

 

[jrista]

Last post for today. I decided on a slight change of tack. Instead of letting the darker stain completely dry, I decided to put the white on now, as I figured if the navy stain was still slightly "wet", it might blend better. I think that ended up being the case. So what I did was to add white stain to the unstained portion at the top. That has proven to be a monster pain, as the wood seems to soak up as much stain as I put on it, almost instantly. I've put a TON of white stain on, and the wood still looks natural colored (it looks bright white in the first few seconds after applying, then almost all of it soaks in over the next couple of seconds and I'm largely back to natural wood color.)

Once the lighter colored stain is on, the technique is this. Take a DRY piece of lint free paper towel (this stuff that feels and acts like a rag is pretty nice), fold it over a number of times to to make it a bit thicker and stiffer. Then dry-spread the lighter stain over the gradient area of the darker. Do this across the entire transition area. Once you have spread some of the lighter stain over the darker, you now want to blend it in. Start rubbing, in a circular mostion mostly but also with a bit of linear deviations into the darker area, and blend the two stains together. The dry applicator will pick up the color of the darker stain. As that happens, blend farther into the dark. If you need to bring/blend in more lighter stain, use a clean part of your applicator, or make a new one, and blend in from light to dark.

Matter of taste how big the gradient area is, but...this seems to work better if you avoid leaving a fairly harsh, notable "edge" to thje darker stain. The top (and now bottom) areas of my gradient zone are now softer, as I worked on dry spreading the darker stain out so that the transition area had a better gradient, and that the end of the gradient zone was pretty much "edge" free. If you leave any kind of edge, even a somewhat diffuse one, its a lot harder to blend the two stains together and get a nice smooth gradient...and this is more of a problem the bigger the area you want a gradient in.

You can see in the photo above, the top region has a fairly nice gradient now, as well as a wider gradient region, than the middle part where I ended up leaving a harsher edge (mostly because I didn't think of using the dry towel applicator to dry brush the area until the stain there had already pretty much dried).

My case here, involving this white stain, is probably a tougher scenario than others that involve say two different colors that would more reasonably STAIN the wood. Probably also than using dyes as well. I am hoping once the current coat of white cures, subsequent coats won't soak in the same way, and I'll be able to build up a true WHITE top here, and a better gradient area. I think the wood definitely matters as well. Any figure, is going to create those hot spots where the grain shows through. That's where Clewes' technique for staining platter rims comes in...he sands those areas down, so that they can accept other stain or dye colors. For a gradient, though, I think you'll be best served with simpler strait grained woods without any figure, and little to no endgrain along the sides of your piece.

 

[randyrls]

I wonder if you could use a small hobby type spray gun to create a smooth transition. I have seen larger turned pieces, bowls and vases done this way.

 

[bugradx2]

What you're doing is fantastic to read and follow, thanks for continuing to post.

 

[jrista]

I wonder if you could use a small hobby type spray gun to create a smooth transition. I have seen larger turned pieces, bowls and vases done this way.

Probably. I may have an old one floating around, as I used to do modeling many many years ago. Not sure if it would handle this stain. I guess, also, the wood soaks up massive quantities of this stain, and I don't know how the small paint cup on a hobby spray gun would hold up.

 

[jrista]

What you're doing is fantastic to read and follow, thanks for continuing to post.

Going to get back out there in a bit...hopefully the wood will no longer soak up massive quantities of this white stain today...

 

[jrista]

Sorry guys...ended up having to deal with something else yesterday.

I put a bit more of the white stain on. It did not soak in quite as badly, but it is still soaking in like mad. I think I chose a poor type of wood to experiment on here. It was a very dry piece, which I thought would be better, but it is seeming like its not. For a wood like this, I am honestly wondering if a very thinned coat of sanding sealer first, then sanded back, then stained, might have worked better for the desired goals.

Anyway. With the latest coats of antique white, the gradient is starting to show up better. I don't know that it will show up in photos yet, so I'm going to try a few more coats first.

I did learn something new though. It is really important that you not let the stain dry too much before you start spreading and blending. Even if the undercoat is fully dry, the overcoat needs to be spread out and blended before it dries. If it dries enough, then you'll get some harder edges and they can be VERY difficult to work out, if they can be worked out at all. So work quickly, work in segments, and make sure that the stain is lightly spread from the overcoat over the darker coat to eliminate that hard edge, then blend it in (swirls and the like, to just kind of buff it in and eliminate any edges at all). Make SURE you use a DRY applicator as a spreader and blender, rather than the applicator you used to just apply the coat of stain (which even if you squeeze it out as much as you can, seems to still just put more new stain on whatever part of the blank you touch.)

 

[bugradx2]

I wonder what a stain pretreat/sealer would do in this process?

 

[jrista]

I wonder what a stain pretreat/sealer would do in this process?

I forgot about stain pretreats. I think there is one for this Varethane stain too. I think I'll give that a try next time here. I'm still experimenting with this current layer of stain on this piece of wood...but once I feel I've brought it to its limit, I will turn off this layer and try using a prestain sealer. It is insane that this wood is still soaking up the white stain in particular.

 

[jrista]

Ok. Last picture before I turned all this off. It took a lot of stain, since I did not seal or precondition the wood before hand, but I finally managed to get enough white on there:

I've turned this off, and shaped the piece more like how I intended to turn it originally (not entirely yet, still want to be able to turn off this next try before I finalize the piece). I am going to be using the Varathane prestain treatment for oil based stains first. The blotchiness above particularly with the Worn Navy will hopefully be reduced or eliminated with this, and hopefully it won't take so many coats of the white.

Now that I've figured out the dry spreading aspect, I should be able to make a better gradient area with the darker stain first, than I did in the above photo. The above shows a fairly harsh transition line, but with some dry applicators pushing the stain around and blending it in, I think I'll be able to create a much better gradient.

 

[jrista]

Well, maybe some of you can offer some insights here. I am not very experienced with stains. Most staining I've done is decks or furniture or other larger pieces, never really this kind of "finer" crafted item.

I've experimented with this stain on a variety of woods, most lighter in color to try and limit how the wood affects the stain color. Ash, maple, birch, and a few small branches of various woods I'm not even sure what they are, but they are lighter colored. I don't generally work with green woods, too much checking and cracking here in arid Colorado. So the woods I work with are usually pretty dry...air dried or kiln dried.

Is it normal for woods to soak up massive quantities of stain? The lighter colors in particular, but not limited to, seem to just disappear into the wood. There is a very faint color left behind, but not enough to overpower the natural beige or slightly light yellowish color of the wood. This is true even with the prestain conditioners/treatments. They DO seem to help with the evenness, but saturating the wood fibers with the conditioner does not seem to augment the rate at which the stains seem to seep into the wood fibers and just sort of vanish (mostly.)

The varathane prestain has a bunch of different hydrocarbons in it, smells pretty bad, so its not just DNA thinned shellac or anything like that. I do wonder if a thinned coating of shellac that is allowed to penetrate for a while might help, but even the blondest shellac yellows the wood even more than the prestain...so I'm not real sure about that idea yet.

Anyway. Just curious what other people's experiences are. If what I'm seeing is normal or not. In any case, I think I've honed my blending technique here, and I'm working on getting a few coats of both stains on and will share some photos later. I think, however, that this "dry rubbing" or "dry blending" approach is the key to produce the gradient, and also that some kind of sealer or conditioner is best to make sure that the stains spread evenly and don't blotch up which will help produce the cleanest possible gradation.

 

[randyrls]

I wonder what a stain pretreat/sealer would do in this process?

Pretreat or Conditioner is commonly used on oak furniture to "seal" the wood and prevent uneven absorption of the stain. This eliminates blotchy areas of darker and lighter stain.

 

[jrista]

Well, I think I am going to call it quits for now. I can't say I've really succeeded. The lighter stains, even with a nice coat of conditioner/sealer before hand, just seem to needlessly and endlessly soak into the wood. That means I waste a lot of stain trying to get the "bare" part of the wood containing the lighter stain, to actually look...heftier, than the part of the lighter stain that gets blended over the darker stain. I actually haven't really achieved a look I think works yet, even...I just can't get the lighter stain to stop soaking in. The prestain conditioner seemed to work like a charm for the darker stain, and in fact in two coats, it looked more like paint (which wasn't what I wanted either.)

It also seems like it would take a real thick coat of the conditioner to truly even out the stain, which seems to go beyond what the instructions state. I tried that in one area, and the stain looked even more like paint, but it did produce a more even result, even though I wouldn't say it looked nice. When the results are uneven, then the blending doesn't look all that great.

I could certainly fiddle with this more, but I am kind of at the end of my rope ATM. The effort here, has been immense, which...is not really practical. (Part of it is also that I accidentally tipped my darn stain can, and spilled a good bit all over my workbench...which I just finished cleaning up, after over two hours... Also lost my best set of digital calipers after being fully doused.) Not a success... I guess I wouldn't say a failure per-se, as the dry-spreading/dry-blending DOES seem to hold a lot of promise. I may try again in the future, if I can find a type of wood that has a more neutral, simple, strait grain, and something that doesn't soak up gallons of stain.

If anyone does give this a try, the dry spreading/blending is the key to get a good blend in the crossover area. I don't know how dye would work here...dyes might be more challenging, although I guess it depends on exactly what your specific goals are. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that maybe you could use an airbrush to spray the gradient overlap areas on. That might work, I guess it would depend on how much of the sprayed stain stuck on the surface, vs. just soaked into the wood. That, I think, has been the most challenging aspect...both for the darker and lighter stains. Its tough to get them to soak vs. sit at the right ratio, for a nice looking blend to work.

I will grab some photos tomorrow of the result so far with this piece, before I turn the stain off and turn the piece just as plain wood (or perhaps, put a single color of stain on it.) There is a gradient between the two, but neither stain looks all that great.

 

[jrista]

Better than my previous attempts, but, not quite what I was expecting. I think part of it is the stain. This stuff is labeled as a single-coat no-sealer needed type of stain. It gets paint-like with a second coat (at least for the darker colors). Lighter colors soak in so much that it takes 4+ coats to get any color to stay on the surface (even with a conditioner or sealer).

Its kind of shiny, which was not what I was looking for. I can probably very lightly sand it, etc. The gradient is ok, but with the blotchiness of the stain, its not quite what I was hoping for. Not a success, not a failure...but progress. I ended up turning this off, and I've turned a bottle-shaped bud vase of of this. Just gonna use my normal finish for now.