concerning the drill bit buy

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Daniel

Daniel

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Joined
Jan 1, 2004
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Reno, NV, USA.
I started a buy for drill bits in individual classifieds.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36272
no this is not a pug for it although it works that way anyway.
jharvey1309 posted a question in that thread.
quote:
quick question. I mostly make el grande, churchills and cambridge pens and they use a 13.3MM but I don't see it listed here is there an imperial bit listed here that is equal to the 13.3?
unquote:

Here is my question and I invite all comments even if you only agree with someone else.
there are several cases where a single pen kit will call for several size bits depending on where you bought it or where you live.

I am not at al sure just what drill bit the el grande calls for here in the U.S. but I am pretty sure it is not a 13.3 mm. since I've made one but don't own a 13.3 mm bit.

I may ave to edit this later as I am working form memory of some work I was doing last night. but from memory i think it is the 8mm,J, and one other fractional bit are all within 3/1000 of the same size of each other. all three of these bits woudl work to drill a blank for any kit calling for 8mm.

As jharvey demonstrates this is a stumbling block I see all the time in comments.

My goal in putting together this set of bits is to include any bit that any penturner needs.

So do I add all these other bits that are called for, or write up a sheet that informs those that buy the set what alternative bit to use.

my main problem in either is having a complete list of bits being used from anywhere. I have posted a thread trying to address this but got only a few responses. some of those where preferences some people have for one bit over another, and one or two where bits needed for special applications, such as when tubes have been painted. I added those bits but at some point I have to draw a line between what is needed and what is wanted. I can't double the number of bits in this set because somebody will eventually need to paint a tube of every size. hope that all make since

what is important to me is that this set is complete the first time through.

Please help get the loose ends tied up, All of you from Canada, Europe, Australia or anywhere else. I have no idea what bits your catalog's show you need. I am sure they are the same kits with the same tubes, but may have a different bit listed. and I am not sure just what way to handle this is best for all of you. I'm pretty sure nobody want to buy three times the bits they really need, and I am just as sure noboby wants to buy a bunch of bits that none of there pen kits call for.
 
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Here the el grande uses a 31/64 and a 33/64 bit. Thats 12.3mm and 13.1mm respectively. So if jharvey's number is correct, your problem is a bit worse than just finding equivalents.
 
Daniel I use a 17/32 .5312 for the cap and use gorilla glue, no problems so far, it's still along way from a loose fit. 13.3 is .5236, I had too much trouble using a 33/64 it's only .5156 and was too snug for me.
 
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there are several situations where people are using different bits that are basically the same size, and for the accuracy needed to fit a tube might as well be.
I have had thoughts of trying to put together a set of bits that has any size anyone could ever possibly think they need. which means both the 7mm and the J. or I can put together a real pro set that really is only what is needed. for people that are wiling to dig out the charts and select a bit not by what is stamped on it but by what size it is, with some knowledge of tolerances needed etc.
I could do a pro set with a direction sheet of what bit is included as a substitute for every other bit it will replace. such as selling the J bit and then telling every pen turner that has been making slimlines for the last 5 years that they really don't need that 7mm bit, at the risk of having to defend my credability. I could also sell the sets bot ways. the penturners set and the pro penturners set and let everyone wonder what it takes to be a pro.
I have a list of just how many cases there are in the entire set of this situation, but basically most of the letter bits are not needed. in one case I discovered that CSUSA is selling pilots for pen ills that are the same sizes as the 3/8 and 10mm pilots they already sold you before. I am not accusing CSUSA of being a crook any more than I would be by selling the J and 7mm bit in the same set. the idea is that the average turner wants to have a 7mm bit when the kit says 7mm and a J when it calls for a J and that really is the way it is. they don't care that they are only a few thousandths of an inch different in size and still won't care even if you tell them.
 
Hi Daniel,

Berea Hardwoods instructions call for a 33/64" drill bit for the Cambridge, Churchill and El Grande pens. Other companies have now changed this to 13.3mm.

What I have found is that the 33/64" bit is too tight. It does not leave much room for glue. If you are using an acrylic and painting the tube and the blank, there is no way that the 33/64" hole will be large enough. The 13.3mm allows room for the paint and your glue.

I find that my drill bits drill very accurate sized holes, so I don't get any "extra" when the hole is drilled. I checked the tube size with my hole gauge and it was obvious that 33/64" was much tighter than most tubes.

That being said, I have made a number of these pens in wood and in opaque acrylic with a 33/64" drill with no problem.

Does that help any? :)
 
My gut tells me just looking at the numbers that going to the 17/32 is stretching ti a bit and that the 13.3mm is the better solution. i am in the school that does not like a tight fit with the tube. one thing they always stress even in flat work is do not clamp glue joints to tightly, it squeezes out to much of the glue and you do not get a good bond.
I will have to see if the 13.3 mm is even available and will add it to the set in this case.
I would appreciate if this thread continued and feel free to mention any other situations you have come across of this nature.

This group will be the ones that determine what this set will be, and for that reason it should be called the I.A.P. drill bit set. for now I will settle for the penturners drill bit set. not so much because it is for penturners but because I want it chosen by penturners.
 
By the way, Bryce, yes that info helped tremendously in helping me make the decision to add the 13.3mm to the set. I had no idea there was a recommended change.
 
Wish List for bits?

Daniel,

based on the "input" from IAP members this is what I believe is the almost "ideal" penmakers' set. Almost gives 99% coverage for doing the most "popular" kit pens:

6 mm
7 mm
8 mm
11/32
3/8
25/64
10 mm
13/32
10.5 mm
27/64
15/32
31/64
12.5 mm
1/2
33/64
37/64

Credit should go towards George (TEXDURANGO) for providing some great input on this subject matter.
 
bitshird said:
Daniel I use a 17/32 .5312 for the cap and use gorilla glue, no problems so far, it's still along way from a loose fit. 13.3 is .5236, I had too much trouble using a 33/64 it's only .5156 and was too snug for me.
Click to expand...

Ditto this on the 33/64

When I called Ernie at Bear Tooth, he told me to get a 13.3 (which he advertises) because it would be a much easier fit. He was right. Regrettably, most of the companies selling Churchill pens advertise the smaller size as the correct bit - in fact the instructions do also. It's kind of an inside secret that's not so secret anymore!:biggrin:

Best,
Roger Garrett
 
wood-of-1kind said:
Daniel,

based on the "input" from IAP members this is what I believe is the almost "ideal" penmakers' set. Almost gives 99% coverage for doing the most "popular" kit pens:

6 mm
7 mm
8 mm
11/32
3/8
25/64
10 mm
13/32
10.5 mm
27/64
15/32
31/64
12.5 mm
1/2
33/64
37/64

Credit should go towards George (TEXDURANGO) for providing some great input on this subject matter.
Click to expand...

Right off the bat I see this list it is missing the 35/64 required for the El Toro/Little Havana - one of my favorite pens. It's listed in his original list.

Best,
Roger Garrett
 
Ed, question on that list even though i know you did not write it. what is the 6mm for?
other than that I think my pro set idea would come fairly close to that. i think it would have 17 bits rather than 16. I would still have to work on it a bit.
 
here is what I discovered about bits last night when I wa doing a bunch of measuring and comparing for anouther matter entirley.
first keep in mind that the pilots we use are only accurate to within 1/100 of an inch and most of you shoudl be familiar with how those fit in the tube. consider this when seeing the difference in the size of some of these bits.

7mm and J are 1/1000 of an inch in difference whichis insignificant for the pourpose of penturning adn tube fit J being the larger of the two woudl be the choice to go with.

5/16, 8mm and O bits are all within 35/10000 (ten thouandths) or 3.5 thousandth of each other. only one of these is needed. sine O is only 1/1000 larger than 8mm. the 8mm is likely the best choice here.

11/32 and S are also only 4/1000 apart. S being larger would be the best bet.

3/8 and V I dare not ask people to part with such a common bit as a 3/b and there is only 2/1000 difference anyway so keep that old thing.

25/64 is 2/1000 inch smaller than a 10mm. but CSUSA will sell you a pilot to fit that tube. a pilot that is not accurate to within 10/1000 in the first place.

12.5 mm and 1/2 inch are 8/1000 inch of difference, actually less. this may seem like alarge gap but in my measuring I got the impression that a gap of about 3/100 or 30/1000 is about the limit for me. so this one still falls well within acceptable.

11mm and 27/64 are only 11/1000 apart. still not even testing that 30/1000 yet.

so right there alone 8 bits could be removed from my full set. this does not include bits that are on it as prefered bits or recommended bits to ad to the list.
 
According to the information I have, the El Grande cap tube has an OD of about 0.512". The manufacturer's recommended drill bit is the 33/64" bit which has a nomonal diameter of 0.5156" which is about 0.0036" over. That is a pretty tight fit as has been mentioned before. I have been accumulating measurement information on pen kits, gradually, and the great majority of drill bit recommendations are in the range of 0.006" to 0.011" over. The 13.3mm bit would be an imperial size of 0.5236" which is at the upper limit of the range I have documented; but should be just fine. A 17/32" bit is 0.531" which is way too loose for my comfort, even when using Gorilla glue. I will say that there are two kits (don't remember which ones right now) where the manufacturer has recommended a bit with this much overage.....0.019".....but I think this is really pushing things too far.
 
Randy, i would agree that the 0.5156 and the 0.531 is getting to the outer limits for me. there are those that choose it though and that is nearly 2/100 of a difference.

I also think that tolerances for the drill bit to tube O.D. needs to be tighter than the pilot to tube I.D. as well. but still the examples i wrote are still well within limits of close enough.

for the most part I think there are many that realize this swapping of bit sizes is possible, we have bought cliper and learned to measure things. yet at the same time many many new turners have not gotten this far. and the set really is geared to the new person walking in the door. that is why I have so far chosen to make the longer list rather than the shorter.
 
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The reason I use the 17/32, I had a 33/64, and the tubes were way to tight, have you tried to find a 13.3 mm drill in a small or even medium sized town? it's even hard to find one in a machine tool supply co. I'll probably order one next time I order more Churchill's or El Grande's but the 11 Ive turned so far have worked OK I only had one blow out and that was with the old style tru-stone.
MSC has them, and I'm trying to find out what the threads are for the Churchill nibs I'll order that size tap and die from them as well, I think it's 10x1 MM
so far the testing I've done on Daniels drills has been better than I expected, I've just drilled about 30 inches of 1/2 inch hole in low carbon steel, and thats better than most of the Chinese drills hold up to, full evaluation forthcoming.
 
Ken, thaks for the sneak peak to your testing. he he, not that i'm anxiouse or anything.
thaks for your comment on finding any of the "weird" bits. I live in a large town and it is not easy to find them. This alone is one of the biggest reasons to have this set available. I would love to have all the individual bits available as well. now quit reading and start drilling.
 
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