"Chasing" ... with an engraver?

[jrista]

So, some time ago, I was looking into ways to set my pens apart. I was exploring the ways classic pen manufactures of the past (often out of business these days) made pans in the past, and one of the intriguing things I found was this surface pattern texturing. I posted on these forums about it, and someone said it was called "chasing" which set me off on another path of discovery! They also mentioned a strait line engine, or Guilloche machine, as a means of actually chasing a blank.

Well, I've been searching for such a machine at a price I could afford for a while now...since that post. I periodically check what's available, most of which are antique machines (which are amazing!! Beautiful engineering designs!)...aaand they are usually super expensive.

SO, I'm now wondering about whether engraving such a pattern would work...and whether I could still call it chasing. I did a bunch of research, and it seems as though many pen manufacturers did not actually manually chase any of their pens with a strait line engine or anything else. Instead, they seemed to have some kind of roller imprinting mechanisms (that I've read descriptions of, but never seen any photos or videos of, so I only vaguely understand how they must have worked), which would heat the blank and imprint the chasing pattern into the blank, with any desired "unimprinted" parts at the top or bottom, as well as any "engraving" areas if there were to be engraved labels or anything like that. It seems these rolled imprinting machines could also add grooves to separate areas of different chased designs, or even simple knurling, etc.

So, if chasing could be done with a roller imprinting system, could it also be done with an engraver? I am not sure if engraved chasing would look the same, or whether I might need to weather the corners of an engraved pattern a little bit to get them to look more authentic... Is it chasing, regardless of how its done, when its this kind of tightly patterned channeling within the surface of a blank (ebonite, metal, acrylic or otherwise)? I managed to find a set of standard chasing patterns that old pen manufacturers used to use, and I've been working on getting them scaled to fit the size of pen blanks I'd want to try this with (which is a little tricky, trying to accurately measure the circumference of a blank, throughout its length, then adjust an image so that it will neatly fit within that circumference without overlapping the pattern...!)

 

[Wmcullen]

Just spent 20 minutes educating myself on "chasing" thanks to youtube. Definitely following...

 

[jttheclockman]

Jon you went down this road before and think it was mentioned it is also called. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilloché Today lasers can do these things along with Rose engines and I believe this was the principle behind the Beall Pen Wizard. We see from a few pen makers here that they do things like that on their pens by hand.

here is a video showing some work with explanation that I am sure you had seen.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/imprinting-or-engraving-ebonite.176851/#post-2179584

 

[jrista]

Jon you went down this road before and think it was mentioned it is also called. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilloché Today lasers can do these things along with Rose engines and I believe this was the principle behind the Beall Pen Wizard. We see from a few pen makers here that they do things like that on their pens by hand.

here is a video showing some work with explanation that I am sure you had seen.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/imprinting-or-engraving-ebonite.176851/#post-2179584

Yeah, I remembered Guilloche machines, as I mentioned them in the post above. I have been down this road...I just never stopped. I had forgotten the Rose engine term, though. I need to go look that up again. I am still trying to find a machine that will do what I want.

I actually bought a Beall Pen Wizard a while ago. I've been experimenting with it. Aside from say diamond patterns that surround a blank, and maybe very closely spaced squiggles (which are another good classic chasing pattern), some other patterns are hard to impossible to achieve with the pen wizard. Notably, anything with long strait lines. There are some very interesting chasing patterns I've found, where you have a few what I would call (and this isn't an official name, just what I call it) a "primary" groove. They might go strait for 2/3rds of the blank length, then go at a 45 degree angle for a little distance, then go strait for the remaining 1/3rd of the blank length. Then, above and below the diagonal part of these primary lines, you would have strait lines, that end a short distance before the diagonal (so they don't connect). Above the diagonal you would have the same thing. So you might have a few of these primary lines with their little diagonal hike in them, with the rest of the blank strait lines. Of course, the patterns can get much more varied and interesting than this, and there are other combinations of patterns/shapes as well (i.e. strait lines, around periodic diamonds, and when a strait line encounters a diamond it travels at an angle as well...and if you are clever, you can get the angled lines around the diamonds to connect perfectly...its very interesting!), but this is a simple exemplar of some of the interesting patterns I've seen. I found a couple of videos of such patterns being created with a strait line machine. Its a very slow, meticulous and painstaking process, which I assume is why it can be such a popular characteristic for collectors item pens!

Mainly, the question is, IF I engraved the patterns, could I still call it "chasing"...is the main thing. I'm asking, because its a highly sought after effect by a lot of pen afficionados, and there are some pretty extensive forum threads I've found on the subject, primarily (I guess almost exclusively) with regards to classic old pens that many of these people buy, sell, collect and trade in.

If I engraved these patterns, and called it chasing...would that be ok? Or would I just get a lot of flak and kickback for it?

Regarding the video, yes, I've seen it, and a few others like it. That's the strait line engine, and I'd love to have one. Can't find one anywhere remotely close to affordable, though. The BPW can't quite do that....at least....I don't think it could without some extensive modification, anyway....

 

[dogcatcher]

From your post
"If I engraved these patterns, and called it chasing...would that be ok? Or would I just get a lot of flak and kickback for it?"

Once you follow this road. It becomes your "ART". In my 2 cents, you can call it anything you want. Kickback, flak would be just be jealousy on the part of people trying to knock you down to their level.

Play your own music, bang your drums the way you want to. Dance to the sounds in your head, not the tune on the radio.

 

[jrista]

From your post
"If I engraved these patterns, and called it chasing...would that be ok? Or would I just get a lot of flak and kickback for it?"

Once you follow this road. It becomes your "ART". In my 2 cents, you can call it anything you want. Kickback, flak would be just be jealousy on the part of people trying to knock you down to their level.

Play your own music, bang your drums the way you want to. Dance to the sounds in your head, not the tune on the radio.

Oh, its not so much other pen makers. I guess, I am wondering if the pen collector types, would be interested in a pen that was "chased", even if it wasn't done in...a traditional manner.

Is chasing just about the pattern, or is it also about the technique? I guess is another way to put what I'm trying to ask...

 

[jttheclockman]

Oh, its not so much other pen makers. I guess, I am wondering if the pen collector types, would be interested in a pen that was "chased", even if it wasn't done in...a traditional manner.

Is chasing just about the pattern, or is it also about the technique? I guess is another way to put what I'm trying to ask...

Not sure why you are locked in on this because I bet all your money that Conway Stewart pen was done with a laser and not by any rose machine or by hand chasing as you call it. Is that traditional? no it is not but it is done with another tool that can do that type work. All these top brand name pens have tons of machines to make their pens that we can not have. They are all automated and computer controlled so precision is key with them.

http://www.richardspens.com/ref/design/chasing.htm#Variations on A Theme

 

[jrista]

Not sure why you are locked in on this because I bet all your money that Conway Stewart pen was done with a laser and not by any rose machine or by hand chasing as you call it. Is that traditional? no it is not but it is done with another tool that can do that type work. All these top brand name pens have tons of machines to make their pens that we can not have. They are all automated and computer controlled so precision is key with them.

http://www.richardspens.com/ref/design/chasing.htm#Variations on A Theme

I'm pretty sure the Conway Stewart pen was rolled, but, I get what you are saying.

 

[jalbert]

My concern with marketing something laser engraved as being "chased" would be the quality of the line. The two tools are going to create different lines, which may be discernible to someone familiar with vintage pens with chasing. Most people probably wouldn't know or care though. I'd just use the most accurate term when marketing.

 

[d_bondi]

What if you coin your own terminology for your "new and improved" process and call it Laser Chasing... it combines the old world craftsmanship with the newest technology and is transparent about how you achieve it.

 

[jrista]

My concern with marketing something laser engraved as being "chased" would be the quality of the line. The two tools are going to create different lines, which may be discernible to someone familiar with vintage pens with chasing. Most people probably wouldn't know or care though. I'd just use the most accurate term when marketing.

What if you coin your own terminology for your "new and improved" process and call it Laser Chasing... it combines the old world craftsmanship with the newest technology and is transparent about how you achieve it.

I guess coining my own term could be an option. But, it does sound like some pen manufacturers were using laser engraving to chase their pens. I couldn't identify exact timeframe, maybe 90s? Older designs, in the early 1900s, were chased in an umber of ways, including etching with a diamond, to a roller pressing process, etc. I kind of like the idea of a roller press for say ebonite. Not sure that would work with acrylics or celluloid, which I think were etched or engraved (sometimes with a laser).

It would be interesting to do some strait line engraving, but that's something for the future. For now, I'm going to give some classic chasing patterns a try with the laser engraver.