I have spent quite some time reading IAP information from the experiences of others casting carbon sleeves. I have seen recommendations to use PR and alumilite. I want to put a decal on top of the carbon sleeve then cast. The decal is sealed already to help prevent the ink from running. Considering the heat caused by curing and tiny crevices in the carbon sleeve, is alumilite a better choice then PR. Also, it seems it read one person casting with PR under pressure? Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks
Casting carbon with decal question
- Thread starter MikeL
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Just bumping the question so it doesn't get buried too far. PR or alumilite and does casting PR under pressure do any good? I always thought alumilite was for pressure because it is thinner and be pushed into crevices and it keeps bubbles under control. PR under pressure doesn't seem helpful but maybe it is?
Kenny Durrant
Member
I use PR with pressure because of a longer work time and pressure to help with air bubbles and seperation. If you put a decal on top of carbon fiber weave you will be making several air pockets. I'm not sure how I would deal with that but I would try PR before alumilite. Good luck
Thanks for your response. I did go ahead and try PR with no pressure yesterday. It confirmed your spot on response--I got separation. I'll try PR with pressure next. If I get another failure I'll try alumilite.
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Kenny Durrant
Member
Before you try again think about the pockets of air under the label. When you first pour the resin everything looks great but as the resin generates heat which causes it to set the air expands then the separation happens. When you glue the label on the fiber use something thick like epoxy or something to fill the voids. I use 5min. epoxy to glue the fiber to the tube so I would use that to fill any gaps under the label.
Good advice. I have considered casting first. Turn down the PR below bushing size close to the carbon fiber itself. Then putting the label on the PR that is just above the carbon fiber then building back up. Problem is will the second pour of PR adhear to cured PR?
Kenny Durrant
Member
I've never tried that but I don't know why it wouldn't work. Not to sound like I'm trying to discourage you but you would have to get the first cast pretty thin or the label might look like it's floating. I'd be courious to see how it turns out and the final process you did to make it work. Keep us informed. Good Luck.
Had another failure using PR. PR is picky about weather conditions. I am assuming a rainy humid day had impact on the very slow curing but the bigger deal is the molds I used with small plugs allowed PR into the tubes. :frown: I thought I pushed the plugs in firmly but obviously not. I believe I'm going to experiment with alumilite. It cures faster and I think is less dependent on perfect weather conditions ( temp and moisture in the air). I hope to have success soon.
Kenny Durrant
Member
I just saw the picture of your mold. Most of the time I check the website on my company computer and I guess they have something set to block things other than sex and weapons. Anyway that is an odd mold. Not trying to force you to go a certain way but maybe give you other things to think about while you decide how to try different things. I've been using silicone plugs with plastic tubing to make my vertical molds. Things were going good then I had a few failures that really disappointed me. I started thinking about the people that use the horizontal molds for basically the same things I do so I did a few things differently with the same molds I've been using and laid them on their side. I used both with and without a pressure pot and so far I've had good results without using pressure. My molds now have a gap along the top like the silicone block molds you see for casting pens and I think the mold being horizontal gives the air a shorter distance to travel to escape. I think it also allows the Pr room to shrink without pulling away from the tube. I just started this Friday so it maybe beginners luck. You're correct about the weather conditions that can play a big part as well. Good Luck
The second failure used a different mold than what was pictured. I used a silicon mold with associated plugs. I think I did not push the plugs firm enough. I will get success. I'm a little too stubborn to let it beat me, right now anyway. I currently have some alumilite under pressure on some fiberglass blanks. Fingers are crossed.
I thought I had a good cast with alumilite on glass fiber. The blank showed no bubbles or separation. But, put the blank To be turned between centers and as soon as I put a little pressure on the bushings it began to separate. I think I'm going to have to wait for better weather and go back to trying PR. I also tried a Carbon fiber with a label. Built up the CA over the label. Sanded it down to smooth. Cast with alumilite and it too separated. I'm using 65 PSI for 2 hrs on both castings. I'll continue to experiment. I've read a thread from the past that someone suggested spraying the blank with lacquer and someone said polyurethane before casting with alumilite. Wonder if one of those methods worked?
Kenny Durrant
Member
Mike I've never TBC but it sounds like the pressure might have caused the brass to flex and that caused the separation of the alumilite. Whenever turning resins you can't put any pressure on the resin just the brass tube. I use bushings and a barrel trimmer and make sure the ends are clean before mounting them on the lathe. It should be the same with wood or other materials it's just that they are more forgiving. As far as the one coated with ca did you let it set for a few days to out gas? Some wait 2-3 days I wait a week. It sounds like your close just don't want you to think the failure is the cast when it might be something else therefore it's takes longer to figure it out. Also I'm no expert I'm just giving you some of the experiences I've had in the past.
Thank goodness each failure gets me a little closer to agood product. What I learned this time is to pay attention to the room givenbetween the brass tube and outside diameter of the pen barrel. The glass fiberdid not have enough room on the nib end of the cigar pen blank on the UT pen(orange and White). When I turned it to size the white fiber was exposed.Besides that, there was still separation that did not look good on the whiteand orange. This was PR under pressure using modge podge for sealing the label.Still have a learning curve on casting resin on fiber. The bullet pen is almostperfect. However, I left a fiber sticking up that I didn't notice until Istarted polishing. Also, the room on the blank did not warrant resin so I justbuilt the blank to size using CA. My hat is off to all those that have beensuccessful at making carbon fiber blanks. I'm getting there but I think I mustbe a slow learner. 
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Kenny Durrant
Member
Pictures make all the difference. The problem is obvious. It's the T with the orange color. It should be an aTm with maroon. No just kidding. It's like you said you learn by trial and error. Of course it helps by learning by others mistakes and findings as well. Let us know if you find the magic solution and we'll do the same. Thanks and Good Luck
Kenny Durrant
Member
Hi Mike how's the casting business? I think I had a big breakthrough Friday. I'm pretty sure my problem was the mold release. The directions said a little goes a long way not to use too much. In the past I was one of the ones that assumed if a little was good then a lot would be great. My problems was that I took use a little to heart. I was barely misting the molds. I called the manufacturer and talked to them and told them I was using a polyester resin and tubes and they said it was tough to keep the same materials from sticking. I asked about using more release and they said the only thing it might do would be to cloud up the surface of the cast. I sprayed a good coat of release agent on the mold and the first one turned out great so I tried two more with the same results. Being 3 for 3 I poured 3 more 1 label and 2 snakeskins. While they were in the oven I noticed a cloudy spot at the top of the mold and in a split second it separated all the way down the mold. The cast was fine when I broke down the mold. My biggest problem has been that the resin was sticking to the mold and pulling away from the tube. I hope this helps and all is well on your end.
Pre-Preg your carbon fiber
Mike and Kenny…I only use Alumilite exclusively. It's easy to use, short open time and in three hours from pour to de-mold I can be turning. Oh, and there is the stink issue. AL does not smell. Yay!
Try pre-pregging your carbon fiber with a very thin epoxy, taking care not to create any air bubbles. Let it sit and set up. Wait until there is no more tackiness to the blank, then continue with the Alumilite pour. It should bond, clear, no misting or bubbles and separation should be a long lost nightmare.
Remember that Alumilite is a Polyurethane based product. PR is not. Alumilite is not PR! It goes without saying that if you use a Polyurethane based product to seal your labels, that will solve all your separation issues, as long as you are sealing the carbon fiber BEFORE you apply the decal and then sealing the decal on top of the already sealed carbon fiber, or whatever your using.
Mike and Kenny…I only use Alumilite exclusively. It's easy to use, short open time and in three hours from pour to de-mold I can be turning. Oh, and there is the stink issue. AL does not smell. Yay!
Try pre-pregging your carbon fiber with a very thin epoxy, taking care not to create any air bubbles. Let it sit and set up. Wait until there is no more tackiness to the blank, then continue with the Alumilite pour. It should bond, clear, no misting or bubbles and separation should be a long lost nightmare.
Remember that Alumilite is a Polyurethane based product. PR is not. Alumilite is not PR! It goes without saying that if you use a Polyurethane based product to seal your labels, that will solve all your separation issues, as long as you are sealing the carbon fiber BEFORE you apply the decal and then sealing the decal on top of the already sealed carbon fiber, or whatever your using.
I did have another failure a week ago with PR. Too many bubbles. This time I have attached the carbon to the tube with clear drying epoxy. I sanded some of the fibers down. Sealed with some CA. Tomorrow it will be three days since sealing with CA. I will try alumilite tomorrow with no decal. I am going to try turning it down, put on the decal, and then build back up. It might look like the decal is floating but that might be OK.
By the way, I did put a thin layer of epoxy on the out side of the carbon fiber as well. I let that cure a day and then knocked down some of the fibers.
By the way, I did put a thin layer of epoxy on the out side of the carbon fiber as well. I let that cure a day and then knocked down some of the fibers.
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completely open for advice
I am at failure four or five. Losing track. I have varied many things. This time was without a label so obviously no trapped air under the label to blame. I have used both alumilite and PR. This is alumilite. The only other variable I can think of changing is how I seal the tube ends. Since the air (or separation) seems to be at the ends, I wonder if air is escaping from inside the tube? I am using 60 PSI in a pressure pot. Those are just wooden dowels turned down to size with a sllight taper and then pushed in pretty tight. These are 7mm tubes I have been attempting. Any advice?
I am at failure four or five. Losing track. I have varied many things. This time was without a label so obviously no trapped air under the label to blame. I have used both alumilite and PR. This is alumilite. The only other variable I can think of changing is how I seal the tube ends. Since the air (or separation) seems to be at the ends, I wonder if air is escaping from inside the tube? I am using 60 PSI in a pressure pot. Those are just wooden dowels turned down to size with a sllight taper and then pushed in pretty tight. These are 7mm tubes I have been attempting. Any advice?
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mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Go for silicone plugs! If you are using pressure, it will PUSH IN the plugs tighter. Vacuum will pull the plugs out and suck the resin in.
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You have done tube on casting and use the silicone? By your advice do you also think it could be air from in the tube? I certainly will give the advice a try. Nothing else is working.
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Just a thought,
Your plugs may not have a good seal. I did some "custom" molds and made my own wooden plugs - Fun to make, looked great, worked like S..T!!!
I bought molds/plugs from PTownSubbie. and (using Alumilite) had nice success with steampunk on tubes, stamps on tubes, and carbon fiber on tubes. The $ spent for better molds/plugs was worth it - others may have better success making them themselves than I!!!
DON"T STOP!!! You probably have made 90% of the "lessons: you need! You'll figure out a method that works for you. Take good notes, save your "lessons," and post your thoughts! We learn more from our failures than our successes!
Your plugs may not have a good seal. I did some "custom" molds and made my own wooden plugs - Fun to make, looked great, worked like S..T!!!
I bought molds/plugs from PTownSubbie. and (using Alumilite) had nice success with steampunk on tubes, stamps on tubes, and carbon fiber on tubes. The $ spent for better molds/plugs was worth it - others may have better success making them themselves than I!!!
DON"T STOP!!! You probably have made 90% of the "lessons: you need! You'll figure out a method that works for you. Take good notes, save your "lessons," and post your thoughts! We learn more from our failures than our successes!
Kenny Durrant
Member
The wooden dowels are porous. When you pressurize the cast you might be forcing out the air in the plugs into the cast.Silicone plugs would sure be worth the money to eliminate that problem. Also it looks similar to some of my failures which I thought was caused by the resin shrinking away from the tube sticking to the mold. I now use a good mold release and it helped with that problem.
Thanks for the input. It seems alumilite should not have separation issues since the characteristic belongs to PR, I think. I won't give up yet but the alumilite corporation must like my failures because I have to order some more. Air from porous wood makes since. I will switch to rubber/silicon plugs.
Spot on!
Mark is spot on, especially about the 90% of lessons learned. I burned through 2 gallons of AL before I finally figured it out. Take everything in this thread and apply it.
I have to say again, try pre-pregnating your carbon fiber. Let the first pre-pregnating completely dry, put on a second coat or even a third, letting each successive layer dry. Get some of Fred Wissens molds, aka, Ptownsubbies.com. They are far and away the best tube-in molds out there.
Mark is spot on, especially about the 90% of lessons learned. I burned through 2 gallons of AL before I finally figured it out. Take everything in this thread and apply it.
I have to say again, try pre-pregnating your carbon fiber. Let the first pre-pregnating completely dry, put on a second coat or even a third, letting each successive layer dry. Get some of Fred Wissens molds, aka, Ptownsubbies.com. They are far and away the best tube-in molds out there.
tim self
Member
One thing you may consider is brushing the blank with PR before putting it in the mold. This insures you will not have such a void on the surface.