Bowl, Vase and Spindle Tool Question for Experienced Turners

[leehljp]

I have a bowl, vase and spindle question. I have many tools but have not turned as much as I would have liked to turn due to too much part time work.

The question is: How much has carbide insert tools affected the bowl, vase and spindle turning world? Another way of asking is: In the AAW world, are carbide insert tools affecting the way new turners (or experienced turners for that matter) choose their turning tools?

The reasonI ask is that I occasionally see a carbide insert tool in a picture of some bowl, vase or spindle in ads, YouTube and occasionally in picts on the web. Not all the time, but enough to raise the question.

I am just curious about this. I think this question would have been sacrilegious 20 years ago!

(I appreciate the sharpness that I get on HSS tools, and the time I spent learning how to sharpen them. Even with the finest of inserts, I haven't found as good a feel in the tool feedback. And of course the shape of tools not available in carbide. )

 

[Mortalis]

I think a lot of new turniers are led to believe that carbide is the cat's meow. They are told that learning curve is low and virtually no sharpening.
This reality can't be further from the truth. To use a carbide (insert) tool requires more than just thrusting the cutter into the material and hope to get a good finish.
I would say am I not an experienced turner but I've been turning for more than a decade. I have a brother that will only use carbide (insert) tools and when asked why his reply is no one ever showed him how to use, what I will call a standard turning tool.
I dont think there has been a momentous change to using carbide (insert) tools. At least not that I can perceive. I dont have any scientific info that supports or debunks that but I dont see an overwhelming amount of turners on line using carbide (insert) tools. I would think if has had any affect on the turning world YouTube would be rife with insert turners. I just dont see it.

 

[Mortalis]

Just for transparency, I do own a square, a round and diamond insert turning tools. They are in the mid size group of tools and are the brand called "The Axe". I mainly use the diamond tool for fine tuning my Tenon for the dovetail chuck. I've used the round tool on occasion but was never comfortable using it as I would inevitably get a catch that would either ruin a turning or at least require a lot of work to repair.
In cross grain work they require a special touch that I have only come to find out about and that is to use them in a shear scrape approach to the work and not just flat straight on.

 

[sorcerertd]

OK, I admit that I get lazy and use carbide a lot. Why do I say "lazy"? Because I also like the finish I get with sharp HSS, specifically a skew. To me, carbide is a scraper, not so much a cutter. I recently bought a 15" round and find it's great for roughing.

Now, I turn very few bowls, but do have some blanks dried and ready to go. I'm curious how to get the same hollow i n a vase with HSS as you can with the "goose neck" style carbide shafts. The interior smoothness won't matter as much if you can't see or feel it, right?

 

[SabertoothBunny]

For the record, I am a demonstrator for Easy Wood Tools but learned to turn with HSS tools. Both carbide and HSS have their place in the turning world in addition to strengths and weaknesses. HSS can be cutting or scraping while carbide are purely scraping. I have both types of tools and use both. When I teach people to turn I prefer to teach with HSS to develop proper body mechanics and techniques.

With HSS, you have a specific tool for everything and while some chisels have a variety of uses your collection of tools can grow quickly. There are countless specialty tools and with HSS turning technique really matters. Poor technique will equal poor results, especially until experience is gained.

For carbide, you have 3 core types which are the rougher (square), finisher (round) and detailer (diamond). There some variations of carbide tips like negative rake and bead cutters. The tools themselves are fairly strait forward, strait bars or curved for hollowing but these all still use the same cutter types. Carbide tools make new turners look better starting out because they don't require a lot of technique or developed skill and open up the range of work that can be done early on.

For hollowing, I have found carbide to be easier to use and more effective with the curved necks. A new, quality carbide tip is sharper than HSS and no, you cannot resharpened carbide tips to be as sharp as they were new because of the rounded edge use creates on them. All sharpening them does is make the edge less round and usable but not really honed.

You can get the same shaping and hollowing work done with carbide that you can with HSS. Your finish will not be as clean with carbide as HSS because they are scraping tools and you will typically require more sanding work. For really spalted woods, carbide is not the best option because of tear out, even if using negative rake. Carbide really shine with resin blanks and hybrid blanks though.

So yes, carbide tools stand to bring more people into the turning world because they are easier to use and cheaper overall since you require less tools. It helps make it more affordable to start turning since you don't needs the variety of tools, grinder, jigs, etc. Carbide are not necessarily "better" than HSS just as HSS is not "better" than carbide. The use of either style of tools is situational and personal preference. There will always be that segment of turners who look down on carbide and, frankly, they are being snobbish and completely wrong.

I hope this all makes sense, let me know if you have any questions.

 

[NJturner]

I am a fairly long time turner, roughly 20 years or so. I turn lots of pens and a bunch of other stuff. I own multiple carbide tools - mostly from Easy Wood Tools and a few Mike Hunter tools. I also use a good selection of other 'classic' tools, most made by Thompson Tools as I like the hardness of the metals Doug uses. My thoughts here are based on good quality steel tools, not cheap knock offs. Good gouges of this type allow you to get a super sharp edge that holds for a long session of turning with maybe a slight honing touchup on a diamond card. I think there is a lot of confusion on selection of a carbide versus a high quality steel tool using the argument of sharpness vs cut quality. Generally, I prefer a classic non-carbide tool for most turning including alumilite pen blanks vs a carbide insert tool, but my reasoning is that I control the shape, contour and edge sharpness of the tool by how I sharpen my metal gouges, versus having to use the carbide insert as it comes out of the box. I sharpen and hone to a fine edge with varied edge and sweep angles based on how I use the tool. With carbide, I get square, round or pointy - some with negative rake, some without. These don't allow me to get the 'sweeping' action I enjoy when I turn, they really just cut. Not complaining or arguing, just saying they feel different. I also find with my sharpening techniques and edge profiles, I typically get a much cleaner cut than I can with the carbides. I find when I am hogging wood out, I'll grab a carbide tool, but when I get to where I want a smooth finish or better-defined profile, I always grab a classic tool with a sharp edge. Both have their place in my shop.

I tell folks to buy cheap tools to learn how to sharpen, as you will burn them down as you learn. But buy quality for refining your skills on the lathe. If you don't know how to sharpen steel and buy carbide ones to eliminate the need to learn, you are missing out on what you can possibly do. I don't have bad things to say about carbide, but I recommend making sure anything you use on a lathe is as sharp as you can get it!

 

[Woodchipper]

My first turning was a piece of 2x4 and a wood chisel. I got the Harbor Freight set and added two bowl gouges and a DIY Bedan tool. Never considered the carbide tools. A Rikon sharpening system and Wolverine setup keep the tools sharp. I touch up my tools with DMT diamond files. So far, so good.
Edit: I look at some YouTube videos for turning. Seems that the background shows a rack with a bunch of turning tools. Why? I'm guessing there are various grind angles for different grains, shapes, etc.

 

[jttheclockman]

Now my answer may sound crude but it is plain and blank. Who cares?? What tool you learn on is not relevant if you learn to properly use the tool. You can take this same argument in furniture making and doing things with hand tools as opposed to using power tools. Today there are more refined power tools than ever before to make the job easier. Turn a bowl with carbide or HSS. if the end results are the same who cares how you got there. I agree that in the turning world I do not think carbide can get close to a finely honed HSS tool of any kind. there are many turners that become more proficient with one tool over another. Take the skew. It is a tricky tool to master but if done so you can perform lots of turning methods that many people would need to switch to different tools to do the same. Hope I am getting my point across properly and mean no disrespect. But yesteryear turners are not today's turners as is the same in any field. Now when technology takes over to where the tool now competes with tools and hobbies that are handmade then there becomes a problem. Such as lasers today. In the scrollsaw field we had to deal with this for so long and it has creeped into the pen turning world as well. So that is my distinction line.

 

[howsitwork]

Hank

that's a whole new can of worms to open up.

I have lots ( according to SWMBO ) of HSS tools, some carbides ( for deep hollowing and end grain hollowing ) , and some carbon steel for fine finishing and dedicated hollowing tools made to shape by me.

Carbon takes the finest edge but it doesn't last long and care to sharpen is essential.

HSS is what I grew up on ( after a few carbons when starting out 35 years ago ) and have learned to use and like. As you know I love skews and have a fair selection ( from memory 7 but there maybe a few more " in reserve ) with curved and straight grinds.

Carbide can be very useful in hollowing but I must admit I've not used it for pens as yet. I also like and am seriously practicing with ring tools but they're a steep learning curve , even more so than skews !

I have seen a ring tool bent through 30* after it choked in a vessel whilst hollowing but properly used they leave a semi polished internal finish to goblets . I've gone down to 3" deep with them so far . Squeaky bum moments for sure but great result.

However "if it works for you" who am I to question it? I like the flexibility I've got and being able to grind custom profiles suits me.

Just make sure you stay safe whenever and whatever you are doing. Don't mess with grinding up old files , yes they can work but they can also shatter and why risk your health ?

 

[ed4copies]

There are at least tens of millions of dollars of carbide tools and carbide cutters sold every year.

They are being used to cut SOMEthing. So, yes it HAS to have made inroads into all facets of woodturning.

 

[Jarod888]

For the record, I am a demonstrator for Easy Wood Tools but learned to turn with HSS tools. Both carbide and HSS have their place in the turning world in addition to strengths and weaknesses. HSS can be cutting or scraping while carbide are purely scraping. I have both types of tools and use both. When I teach people to turn I prefer to teach with HSS to develop proper body mechanics and techniques.

With HSS, you have a specific tool for everything and while some chisels have a variety of uses your collection of tools can grow quickly. There are countless specialty tools and with HSS turning technique really matters. Poor technique will equal poor results, especially until experience is gained.

For carbide, you have 3 core types which are the rougher (square), finisher (round) and detailer (diamond). There some variations of carbide tips like negative rake and bead cutters. The tools themselves are fairly strait forward, strait bars or curved for hollowing but these all still use the same cutter types. Carbide tools make new turners look better starting out because they don't require a lot of technique or developed skill and open up the range of work that can be done early on.

For hollowing, I have found carbide to be easier to use and more effective with the curved necks. A new, quality carbide tip is sharper than HSS and no, you cannot resharpened carbide tips to be as sharp as they were new because of the rounded edge use creates on them. All sharpening them does is make the edge less round and usable but not really honed.

You can get the same shaping and hollowing work done with carbide that you can with HSS. Your finish will not be as clean with carbide as HSS because they are scraping tools and you will typically require more sanding work. For really spalted woods, carbide is not the best option because of tear out, even if using negative rake. Carbide really shine with resin blanks and hybrid blanks though.

So yes, carbide tools stand to bring more people into the turning world because they are easier to use and cheaper overall since you require less tools. It helps make it more affordable to start turning since you don't needs the variety of tools, grinder, jigs, etc. Carbide are not necessarily "better" than HSS just as HSS is not "better" than carbide. The use of either style of tools is situational and personal preference. There will always be that segment of turners who look down on carbide and, frankly, they are being snobbish and completely wrong.

I hope this all makes sense, let me know if you have any questions.

I would have to disagree with the statement that carbide are only scrapers. Carbide tools have a bevel, which can be "road"; therefore you can cut with them. The concept of simply jamming a carbide tool into the wood while being held straight on a tool rest is one of the major reasons why people think they are scrapers and don't cut wood.

Simply put you can get an equally good finish with carbide that you can with hss. You just need to understand how to use them. Also, scraping isn't a bad thing, if it was Richard Raffin wouldnt be so successful.

 

[leehljp]

Thanks everyone. As my grown psychology daughter says: "Daddy, if you think and talk about something long enough, you might come to understand it. Your discussions have helped me understand there is a change at hand.

As to turning, I am self taught as I haven't had anyone near enough to learn from. And like several of you, after I learned to sharpen HSS properly, (much from experience and some from other's techniques), I came to enjoy the feel and feedback with the HSS tools that I don't get from carbide inserts. I will say that I use the carbide for roughing out areas or square blanks to round.

When I started turning pens in late 2004 and joining IAP in 2005, I did run into some old guard turners who didn't particularly like change - such as: "who needs digital readouts?" "What is wrong with changing the belt for changing speed?"

I was curious as to what is going on in AAW and if carbide inserts were making inroads there. Thanks for all of your input. Helpful!

 

[PreacherJon]

Coming in late to the discussion. I started turning back in the mid-1970s. Tooling has come a long way, and yet, the traditional is a tool that people just keep going back to. The HSS tools do need more time to learn to use properly and learn how to sharpen. Thankfully the jig systems out there make it much easier today than it did a couple of decades ago. I would suggest that bowl turners just starting out to give them a try and be patient in developing the skills.

I don't own any carbide tools save the hollowing tools I purchased a while back. I've still not hollowed anything out with them (hollow form), but I have experimented a little with the end grain bowls I've made. Probably not the best use for them... the long thin one does not have the heft in its bar design. If the larger ones are any indication of the hollow tool I've used. I can see where it will do the job. But I think there will be a lot of sanding happening after the cutting is done. I imagine that both types of tools have their place, and learning to use them correctly will be the key. Patience, patience, patience.

 

[RunnerVince]

I'm still a relative newbie to turning, at 8 years. I started out with HSS, and tried carbide thinking it would be a shortcut. I now have a $70 carbide tool that I rarely use, and then only for roughing. Others swear by carbide.
I went to a demo on how to use carbide tools, and the demonstrator kept finding reasons to use his gouges instead of his carbide tools, so I didn't really learn much. I don't think he actually knew what he was doing when it came to carbide.
Use what works for you. If HSS isn't working, you have two options: Switch to carbide and hope that makes a difference or keep learning and practicing with HSS. Either way, you're going to have to take the time and effort to learn the tools you're using. Once you've done that, and you're making things that meet your own standards, then as @jttheclockman said, who cares how you get there.
My personal standard comes from Chip Gaines of HGTV fame: "Don't stop 'til you're proud."

 

[SabertoothBunny]

I'm still a relative newbie to turning, at 8 years. I started out with HSS, and tried carbide thinking it would be a shortcut. I now have a $70 carbide tool that I rarely use, and then only for roughing. Others swear by carbide.
I went to a demo on how to use carbide tools, and the demonstrator kept finding reasons to use his gouges instead of his carbide tools, so I didn't really learn much. I don't think he actually knew what he was doing when it came to carbide.
Use what works for you. If HSS isn't working, you have two options: Switch to carbide and hope that makes a difference or keep learning and practicing with HSS. Either way, you're going to have to take the time and effort to learn the tools you're using. Once you've done that, and you're making things that meet your own standards, then as @jttheclockman said, who cares how you get there.
My personal standard comes from Chip Gaines of HGTV fame: "Don't stop 'til you're proud."

Keep an eye on the calendar for Klingspor, Woodcraft and Rockler. They offer demos for carbide tools from Easy Wood Tools demonstrators

 

[jrista]

I am a more recent turner. I started in 2020. When I started, I picked up both the three min EWT tools, to the tune of about $600, and several other HSS tools. I have used both fairly extensively now.

As a beginner, I would say that there was definitely a draw to the carbide tipped tools from an ease of use standpoint. There are only a few, and initially you certainly start out using them in a scraper orientation. Turning things is pretty easy with them, and getting the whole ball rolling on turning is easier with carbide tipped tools because you don't need a grinding wheel. With HSS, a good grinding wheel is essential (which is why within a month or so of getting started, I had both a low speed grinding wheel setup with two CBN wheels, all which cost about another $600 or so.)

While I did find that getting going with carbide tipped tools was easier in some ways, and faster as I never really had to deal with sharpening (some, but usually just flipping a non-NR tip upside down on a polishing stone and honing the edge as needed), I ended up finding there were definite drawbacks. First, in a scraper orientation, carbide tipped tools were tearout machines. Every kind of wood I turned, tearout. Massive amounts of it. Even when I started doing sheer scraping, there was still some tearout, and with sheer scraping getting a truly fine surface with cleanly cut fibers was tough. Even when I was able to cut the fibers clean, in a sheer scraping orientation on bowls and vases and the like, there were always tool markes. Even with a light hand, turning with these kinds of tools just seemed like a lot more work.

After my first couple of years, I started relying on HSS tools more. In particular, the cheap ones I had started with ended up replaced with a fairly extensive set of Carter and Son M42 steel tools. I have numerous handles and a bunch of tools from them now. The M42 steel definitely holds an edge longer, and seems to hone to a finer edge as needed as well. While I still use my carbide-tipped tools when I need to, for the most part I usually choose a normal gouge, skew or scraper instead. I guess I'm about four and a half years into my woodturning journey now, and in my short experience, I find that turning with gouges, skews and a few good properly-honed scrapers with a good burr, are just much, much faster. Even when you account for the sharpening needed at the CBN wheels, these tools are true cutting tools, and with the bevel there for support, you can cut a lot of wood really fast when your tools are sharp. Shaping is very fast. Tuning cuts are fast, clean, and can often be made tool-mark free. Finishing cuts can give you a near-perfect surface that sometimes doesn't even need to be sanded (depends on the type of wood IME.)

As much as I have tried to, I've never been able to achieve quite the same thing with carbide tipped tools. Even with brand new tips or freshly honed tips, they are definitely a different kind of tool. They definitely have their purpose, no question there, and sometimes the right sized carbide tipped tool (at this point, I think I have 7 or 8 different ones) is the only tool that will really do the job. There are certain corners and the like that a conventional gouge or skew just can't get into. For hollowing, some kind of tipped tool is often the ONLY way to get the job done. So they have their purpose.

But, if I want the cleanest, smoothest cut with the most pleasant surface in the end, I always find myself reaching for a gouge or a skew. I'm not even that skilled with skews, but even with my limited skill, I have always found that getting the cleanest possible cuts is still more likely going to occur with a skew, even with its potential catch risks (at least at my skill level), than with a carbide tipped tool, in a sheer scraping orientation, or with negative rake, or not.

I definitely have more conventional turning tools than carbide tipped tools... Just off the cuff, I would say I have 17 or 18 different conventional turning tools, so double or more the number of carbide tipped. Of the carbides, half are basically the same tool, hollowing tools, just with different angled necks. With the conventional tools, most are gouges, and each one is ground to a different kind of shape, each one tuned for a specific kind of turning at specific angles. Outside bottom of a bowl, vs. outside sides of a bowl, rough cutting vs. finishing cuts, internal sides, internal bottom, for both rough and finishing cuts. Numerous different spindle gouges with different angles, pointiness, etc. I guess three different skews, some radiused some strait. A couple of different scrapers. Some specialty tools, including a box hollower, and also (previously uncounted) a thread chasing tool. So the HSS tools are definitely a more....diverse and complex tool, with more to lean as far as how to use them, grind their shape, sharpen them, hone them, etc. etc. But in the end, I feel they help me get the job done faster, with cleaner cuts, than a carbide tipped has ever done. Which largely renders the carbided tipped tools to very special tasks.

 

[KenB259]

I would have to disagree with the statement that carbide are only scrapers. Carbide tools have a bevel, which can be "road"; therefore you can cut with them. The concept of simply jamming a carbide tool into the wood while being held straight on a tool rest is one of the major reasons why people think they are scrapers and don't cut wood.

Simply put you can get an equally good finish with carbide that you can with hss. You just need to understand how to use them. Also, scraping isn't a bad thing, if it was Richard Raffin wouldnt be so successful.

I totally agree with this. I pretty much just use carbide anymore for pens. Not that can't use traditional tools , I just like carbide and I always ride the bevel on them and I rarely sand my blanks. Whatever works for you is the right way for you.