Bad Times ... what Can We Do as a Community?

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Status
Not open for further replies.
DocStram

DocStram

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
3,429
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Before you begin reading this post .... please understand that this is NOT intended to be a political discussion. If anyone even blinks at turning it into a forum on the election, or on who is to blame or which candidate intends to do what, I will immediately ask Jeff or Curtis to shut it down. With that said ... here goes:

We all are very aware that we, as citizens of Planet Earth, are facing tough economic times. It doesn't matter what country you live in or where you are .... we are all feeling it. With that said, I'm wondering what we can do as the IAP Community to help each other. We're all going to be cutting back on our purchasing of pen kits, supplies, and tools. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that pen sales are going to decline.

What can we do to help each other?

My first suggestion is that when buying materials and supplies, that we try to buy from each other. Look first in IAP before making penturning related purchases.

Second, if you are selling to other IAP members, consider lowering your profit margin. We're all facing economic challenges. Try to help your fellow IAP members out whenever possible. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business. But, people are going to have less money to spend. Maybe it's better to have a little less profit than no profit at all.

Third, consider trades and bartering. Cash flow is going to become squeezed. Maybe there's something you have that you aren't using that another member would be interested in trading for. I know I have a few tools laying around gathering dust. I'd sure like to try trading them for kits or pen blanks before spending my hard earned moola.

Fourth, don't be offended if you put an item up for sale and someone offers to barter for it. Be open and receptive to new ways of doing business.

Fifth ... let's hear your ideas!
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Hey Al, these all sound like good ideas but the problem I'm faced with is little dollars AND not much to trade if anything as I'm still in the starting-out phase :( otherwise that would be good for me (bartering that is)

I think it's a GREAT idea to do business with IAP members first, I have a list of things I've been looking for here and on CL...

Dave
 
Al,

I think you've had a stroke of genius. Bartering is a very good idea and I have a few things lying around that I'd love to trade. Let's see where this takes us.
 
Yep Al, barter just a stroke of luck I'll have lots that I'll be willing to trade in the next few weeks.
Also lets try more group buys as these save all after fees around 21%.
 
The other side of the coin is to help each other succeed with sales. Share when we have good sales, what customers are buying and where you are finding your customers. The more sales we can help each other get the better off we will be.
 
Maybe my circumstances are different from the average person but at 70 it doesn't seem that the economics of the country are causing me any particular grief.

I still get my Social Security, which was never enough. I still am covered by medical insurance through my wife's job along with Medicare A & B. Gasoline has now gone down under $3 which is about $1 less than 6 months ago. Food has gone up a little but doesn't seem to be a serious problem as I seem to be eating a little less than before. My stock is a long time thing and basically still paying good dividends. Restaurant prices are up but I don't eat out much.

The most noticeable thing is that pens don't seem to be selling as good as 6 months ago but I am sure this will pick up as we near Christmas. I have a craft show coming up on Saturday and I am not really expecting a lot of sales, just cover my expenses and get some exposure.

What worries me is who will be our next president and hell, we have survived bad presidents in the past.

But count me in for some trading, I am always up for that.
 
Good ideas Al. I would add lets counsel one another on how not to use credit. A little Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University could go a long way to helping people out.
 
Al, I think you have some good ideas. The only glitch to be doing a lot of trading or helping each other is the way the forum is already setup. You have the preferred vendors selling stuff in one area, businesses in another, individuals in another and swaps and trades are seperate, then there are the group buys in yet another forum so you have stuff scattered all over the place.

I'm just thinking out loud here but I wonder how it would work if we had yet another forum simply called "Members helping members"? All the thread types you mentioned above could be posted in one area and if current vendors or individuals choose to do business as usual and not participate, well then the chips can fall where they will.

This new forum could be a place for anyone, business or individual to offer goods at reduced prices or "member specials" or to ask for goods for a price or offer to barter. This way if a member was looking for a good deal he only need visit the one forum and look through the posts!

If I do another group buy, I'm going to contact the vendor prior to the buy to see if we can get a little extra discount. The last time I did that, I was offered free shipping and a little better discount than what was posted on their web store and everyone shared in the savings.
 
How will lowering prices help? If my profit margin is designed to provide me a fair profit and I accept less then eventual business failure will occur. Agreed, home based hobby businesses might survive. But the formula is the same. You must charge enough to put beans on the table and keep the business operating. Communal concepts historically fail.
 
Frank ... I said:

" . . . if you are selling to other IAP members, consider lowering your profit margin. We're all facing economic challenges. Try to help your fellow IAP members out whenever possible. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business. But, people are going to have less money to spend. Maybe it's better to have a little less profit than no profit at all."

I didn't say charge so little that you won't be able to put beans on the table. I did say that we should consider lowering our profit margin. Would you rather have sales with less profit or no sales at all? No sales at all is becoming a distinct possibility as the market continues to crumble.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
How will lowering prices help? If my profit margin is designed to provide me a fair profit and I accept less then eventual business failure will occur. Agreed, home based hobby businesses might survive. But the formula is the same. You must charge enough to put beans on the table and keep the business operating. Communal concepts historically fail.
Click to expand...
Well, I think the point is to try to pull together and help everyone "put beans on the table and keep the business operating". Not trying to offend here, but the attitude of your post is the exact reason that "communal concepts historically fail". The concept is that if we all decide to maybe make a little less than a fair profit when we deal with each other than we can help keep everyone afloat instead of making our "fair profit" while a few at the bottom fall off the radar. If you're not one of those that falls off the radar, it doesn't seem like such a big deal, but if you are one of those that falls off the radar, it is a big deal. If you don't want to participate, than fine, don't participate. But if we stand alone, we fail alone. For some it's a hobby and other's a business, but there's no reason why we can't work together. It'll make us stronger in the process.

At the beginning of the Great Depression, world economies said, "Screw it. We're going to take care of our own and we don't care how that affects our neighbors. We have to make our economy better even if that means making theirs worse." And things "took a turn". Our economy may be in what looks like chaos right now, but the markets will adjust to some kind of equilibrium and if world economies work together we'll be fine. The same applies to us. We can help each other and we'll be fine.

I for one think that Al's idea is a good one. I would certainly rather buy something I need from the people here if it will help this community.
 
DocStram said:
I did say that we should consider lowering our profit margin. Would you rather have sales with less profit or no sales at all? No sales at all is becoming a distinct possibility as the market continues to crumble.
Click to expand...

Al,
My wife and I just did a show last weekend and have one coming up this weekend... last weekend sales were pretty dismal.. lots of lookers, not many buyers.... and traditionally the show has been really good sales outlet. This coming weekend, the show is really an unknown for me.. no history and not any contacts to ask, but given the area, we decided to try to stimulate sales a little by doing just what you have suggested. My sales prices are based on costs plus a shop rate and mark-up percentage... I went through my entire stock and lowered my shop rate about 40%. Prices will still be profitable, but with lower expectations...
This is mostly a hobby business that needs to support itself and maybe contribute a little to the household.
I can't sell to the membership here, since most are as, or more skilled than, me at turning the pens and the hollow forms that I offer.
 
I'm all for a little bartering or trading as long as both parties in the deal agree to what is fair and equal to both. I think it is a great idea!
 
Chuck, I have to disagree about lowering the selling prices of finished products, I just got in the mail the new catalog from CSUSA and some of the best sellers have increased in price 20% example the Jr. Gent rollerball rhodium from $13.80 to $16.99, gas from $2.30 a gallon last year to $3.30 now, my next show my motel went up 30%, what we have to do is cut expences not prices. I made a few calls and found a motel for less, we will eat at less expensive resturants, look for gas at Super Wal-marts where I can get .03 a gallon off, drive at 65 mph instead of 75 and buy my product right as Al has suggested. We also have to pick the right venues to do our selling. The one thing Steve Roberts and Ed Brown do is chose their venues and this year we will find that some are going to be way down so if we were to lower prices and cut profits we will drive ourselfs out of business or not pay for our hobby which ever the case may be. Thats my 2 cents and its worth what you paid for it.
ozmandus said:
Al,
My wife and I just did a show last weekend and have one coming up this weekend... last weekend sales were pretty dismal.. lots of lookers, not many buyers.... and traditionally the show has been really good sales outlet. This coming weekend, the show is really an unknown for me.. no history and not any contacts to ask, but given the area, we decided to try to stimulate sales a little by doing just what you have suggested. My sales prices are based on costs plus a shop rate and mark-up percentage... I went through my entire stock and lowered my shop rate about 40%. Prices will still be profitable, but with lower expectations...
This is mostly a hobby business that needs to support itself and maybe contribute a little to the household.
I can't sell to the membership here, since most are as, or more skilled than, me at turning the pens and the hollow forms that I offer.
Click to expand...
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
Chuck, I have to disagree about lowering the selling prices of finished products, I just got in the mail the new catalog from CSUSA and some of the best sellers have increased in price 20% example the Jr. Gent rollerball rhodium from $13.80 to $16.99, gas from $2.30 a gallon last year to $3.30 now, my next show my motel went up 30%, what we have to do is cut expences not prices. I made a few calls and found a motel for less, we will eat at less expensive resturants, look for gas at Super Wal-marts where I can get .03 a gallon off, drive at 65 mph instead of 75 and buy my product right as Al has suggested. We also have to pick the right venues to do our selling. The one thing Steve Roberts and Ed Brown do is chose their venues and this year we will find that some are going to be way down so if we were to lower prices and cut profits we will drive ourselfs out of business or not pay for our hobby which ever the case may be. Thats my 2 cents and its worth what you paid for it.
Click to expand...

Roy,
You are right about cutting expenses... I've always operated on the least expense I can.. Over all the years I was in the traffic and transportation business, we had to maintain the lowest cost ratio we could... it's a tough business and the margins were fairly slim..

I do have to buy my pen kits, but I generally don't buy the high priced kits, my market just won't support the extravagant pens. My hollow forms and bowls are generally from wood I have on hand that cost me only a little effort to pick up and maybe a few miles on the little pickup... I use a lot of Cedar and Spalted Maple, all of which is from my property, and I have some Cherry, Hackberry, Willow, Maple and Oak that friends have given me. I did buy some pen blanks and other woods back when the economy was better and I was still working so that cost has been covered. I had set my shop rate relatively high... so a reduction there doesn't change much except my labor rate. I'll recover all of my costs and still get a pretty fair return for my labor...

As for shows, I don't do overnight shows... I limit my distance to what I can drive to in the morning and home in the evenings.. no motels, but we do eat lunch and usually dinner out. I know I could get better shows maybe if we go overnight, but then the expenses go up accordingly.. higher booth fees, motel costs, higher food costs, etc.
 
I think some are starting to miss the point of this thread! It's about members helping members and doing more swapping instead of just buy, buy, buy.

A good candidate for a participant is me! I probably have 200 - 300 kits of probably 8 different pen types, have approximately 800 blanks and with my new interest in making my own pens will probably never use all the kits I have so why not sell them to a fellow member who is looking for the exact same kits? That or swap them for something someone else has that I need.

From what I've seen on the forum in the past 1 1/2 years, there are some great deals floating around BUT there are also some folks selling items here that can afford to cut fellow members a little slack and still make it worth their while selling their stuff! Perhaps switching attitudes from "Whatever the traffic will bare" to "Give a friend a break" might be appropriate.
 
Texatdurango said:
I think some are starting to miss the point of this thread! It's about members helping members and doing more swapping instead of just buy, buy, buy.

A good candidate for a participant is me! I probably have 200 - 300 kits of probably 8 different pen types, have approximately 800 blanks and with my new interest in making my own pens will probably never use all the kits I have so why not sell them to a fellow member who is looking for the exact same kits? That or swap them for something someone else has that I need.

From what I've seen on the forum in the past 1 1/2 years, there are some great deals floating around BUT there are also some folks selling items here that can afford to cut fellow members a little slack and still make it worth their while selling their stuff! Perhaps switching attitudes from "Whatever the traffic will bare" to "Give a friend a break" might be appropriate.
Click to expand...


Thanks, George, for helping to get this back on track. You're exactly right .... that was the point of my starting this thread. I'm talking about the IAP Community helping each other.
 
I recently did a blanks for kits swap and it went great. I never have $$ since I started working for a church (took a 40% salary hit there), so I'm always short on something. Swapping is a great way to fill in the holes my wallet won't allow me to otherwise fill.
 
I think bartering is a great idea, as well as, group buys. I am also willing to share the multitude of wood that I have an excess of just sitting in my garage, or that I acquire from tree trimmers. For those just starting out I would be willing to send you some blanks for just the postage. Just send me a PM.
 
I do group buys, but even this requires dollars out of the members pocket to do. I will trade quite a bit, but one of the biggest things I think I do to outright save turners money is this. When I first started turning I got tons of blanks, 10 of this 10 of that a couple of times ordered 50 to 100 of something on e-bay gots lots of found wood etc. so now I have hundreds of blanks that I will never turn. I send these to new members that need to practice. no need to spend there hard to come by hobby money on practice wood. some of these blanks will make sellable pens so maybe they will be able to even make some money to go get one or two of those higher priced items like a sharpening system so there work can improve even more. as for what this does to my selling abilty. well I think helping my competition do a better job is pretty much devistating to it. It does tend to do a world of good for my group buys though.
 
DocStram said:
Frank ... I said:

" . . . if you are selling to other IAP members, consider lowering your profit margin. We're all facing economic challenges. Try to help your fellow IAP members out whenever possible. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business. But, people are going to have less money to spend. Maybe it's better to have a little less profit than no profit at all."

I didn't say charge so little that you won't be able to put beans on the table. I did say that we should consider lowering our profit margin. Would you rather have sales with less profit or no sales at all? No sales at all is becoming a distinct possibility as the market continues to crumble.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Doc. No matter where the income comes from, IAP'ers or not, the margin must be sufficient to stay in business. Helping other IAP'ers at ones one expense becomes a charitable mission at personal cost.
Even with tough markets, luxury items continue to sell strongly. Mid-range price items do take a hit but upscale still does well. We do not sell a 'need' item, we sell a 'want' item.
Sears-Roebuck had it's most spectacular growth from the depression through the end of WWII because they refused to accept a defeatist attitude and put money into new products and promotion. In the 1970's a new breed of management took a turtle's view of things and Sears shrunk so badly as to almost vanish.
Which model are you proposing we use as an example?
 
Rifleman1776 said:
Sorry, Doc. No matter where the income comes from, IAP'ers or not, the margin must be sufficient to stay in business. Helping other IAP'ers at ones one expense becomes a charitable mission at personal cost.

Even with tough markets,..... blah blah blah....

Sears-Roebuck had it's most spectacular growth..... blah blah blah....

Which model are you proposing we use as an example?
Click to expand...
Good Grief here we go again!
Frank, Excuse me for being blunt but this just rubbed me wrong so I have to ask, Are you so bored that you just love to argue for arguments sake? Al, nor anyone else is suggesting cutting prices so low as to create a "charitable mission"!

The exact phrase used was "consider lowering your profit margin". Personally I think you ought to learn to comprehend what is written instead of reading your own interpretation into what is written then going off half cocked with your wild assertions and adding in whatever you feel like just so you can start another one of your rambling tirades. To top it off, you always seem to end your posts with some ridiculous, pointless or inflammatory question in hopes of continuing your argument.

Have you ever considered just participating in a thread without turning it into a "world versus Frank debate" then start complaining about everyone always disagrees with you?
Geeze, enough already, it's getting old!

On Edit: My apologies to everyone else for this post, I'm just tired of seeing good thread after thread trashed with this sort of nonsense.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, George. You're right, it is getting old.

Why does this happen?

My only intent was to help raise the awareness level of the IAP community and to help us reflect on whys that we can support each other in a universal time of need. That's all. I wasn't trying to do a comparative analysis of various marketing strategies or conduct an economic analysis of Sears' business model. I was just asking us to think about ways to help each other weather the storm.

This is no time for rancor. There's plenty of that going on in the world today. If I wanted to read about conflict I would just turn on the news.

If there's a mod out there ..... do me a favor and lock 'er down before it goes any farther south.
 
I think this subject is like any other and if one disagrees with the proposal then don't participate. The exchange or buying of materials to make pens is a personal matter and if I chose to give away, lower cost of buying or swap then it is between myself and the other person. Somehow I see that often the original intent of a thread gets lost in a discussion of rhetoric and then people get upset.
If some people want to lower their prices that is fine, if someone doesn't this discussion, in no way, asks them to do so.
Back to the original idea, I think that it is only expounding on what already happens here a lot of the time. I have had people send me things and vice versa and it actually feels great to me. So I will participate, as usual, and hopefully my pen turning and business will be better for it and hopefully others as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom