tseger
Member
I'm getting an AC for my shop, which is 24x30 or 720 sq ft. The best I can figure, I'm gonna need about 15000 BTU, what are the advantages of a 230v AC versus a 115v. Is there anything else I need to consider with choosing the AC?
Air Conditioner Question
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jocat54
Member
Tim, I think you will be better off with 220(230-240) it will draw less amps so it should be more efficent.
Good luck
Good luck
aplpickr
Member
13K BTU is the normal limit for 120v units. 230v pulls one half the amps of 120v. Smaller wire size, but the same KWH, which is how the power company bills you. The 230v is sometimes a little more efficent, but not necessarily so. A 15K unit on 120v would max out it's circuit= needs a clean circuit with NO OTHER load. This is impossible to find in normal household wiring.
Above comment: Less amps does not make it more efficent. It has to do with other factors not appropiate for this forum.
Above comment: Less amps does not make it more efficent. It has to do with other factors not appropiate for this forum.
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jocat54
Member
I do agree less amps MAY not make it more efficent, but it is a good star.
I guess I was assuming if he went with 230V that it would be a new wired circuit with a proper size wire.
sdemars
Member
15,000 BTU will not make it in Mississippi. I have a very well insulated and sealed 400 sq. ft. shop in Louisiana & I started out with 17,000 BTU . . . Worked fine if I let it run and maintain all the time, and did not run the 24 light fixtures, any of the power tools and the dust collector (aka a mega blow dryer). So I ended up with 26,000 BTU, it was too much, it short cycled. Cooled great but did not remove the moisture. So I added a 75 pint a day dehumidifier.
Now I can walk in to a very dry warm shop in the afternoon and have it ice cold in about 15 minutes with 22% to 35% humidity. Now it is dry and cool . . .
Just my experience . . . I'm sure if you allow it to maintain a reasonable temp 24/7, 15,000 BTU will increase comfort level. My shop is on a separate meter and seldom exceeds $30.00 a month . . .
As to 115VAC versus 220VAC, 220VAC is going to be the way to go. I doubt you will find a unit that will cool your shop that will operate on a 115VAC circuit . . .
If you have to go 115VAC, it could be beneficial by running (2) units that total what you need to cool your shop. Let one unit run continuously with a high set point. That would bring your inside temp down a great deal & act as a dehumidifier. Maybe maintain your shop at 85 24/7 & when you walk into your shop to work simply kick on the second unit to bring the shop to the comfort level you desire. If I had to do it all over again, this is the way I would go. Don't beat yourself up trying to mentally calculate the most economical cost of operation. X amount of BTUs cost X amount of $$$.
Steve
Now I can walk in to a very dry warm shop in the afternoon and have it ice cold in about 15 minutes with 22% to 35% humidity. Now it is dry and cool . . .
Just my experience . . . I'm sure if you allow it to maintain a reasonable temp 24/7, 15,000 BTU will increase comfort level. My shop is on a separate meter and seldom exceeds $30.00 a month . . .
As to 115VAC versus 220VAC, 220VAC is going to be the way to go. I doubt you will find a unit that will cool your shop that will operate on a 115VAC circuit . . .
If you have to go 115VAC, it could be beneficial by running (2) units that total what you need to cool your shop. Let one unit run continuously with a high set point. That would bring your inside temp down a great deal & act as a dehumidifier. Maybe maintain your shop at 85 24/7 & when you walk into your shop to work simply kick on the second unit to bring the shop to the comfort level you desire. If I had to do it all over again, this is the way I would go. Don't beat yourself up trying to mentally calculate the most economical cost of operation. X amount of BTUs cost X amount of $$$.
Steve
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tseger
Member
Thanks for the responses, I think the 240 will be the best way to go. Steve, I was wondering about the recommended cooling area in the soggy south. Temps have been bumping 100 for nearly two weeks now with humidity levels in the 90s. I had rather get more than I need (if I can afford it) than not have enough. I can always turn it down...or up.. well you know what I mean.
sdemars
Member
I would . . .
I would suggest (2) units at opposite ends of your shop. The size(s) will be dependent on the insulation, sealing, etc . . A non-insulated garage door can be a problem. I think I would try a (2) 10,000btu or 12,000btu. This would give you a way to control the temp & humidity just the way you want it. It will take a few days, but you will figure out what to set each unit on to give you what you want. You pretty much need to find out at what point the 220 vac units are built at. I think they go to 220vac at about 12,000 btu. Smaller than that, most will be 115vac units. Do not waste your money shopping brands. After much research I found that all "window" AC units except for one are made in China. Two Chinese factories now makes all & they "PRIVATE LABEL" them. GE, Samsung, Frigidair, etc . . Try to buy the ones with the flattest front, this will make it easier when you decide to build a better filter holder with a larger area. I use 12" X24" pleated filters designed for a central unit.
My intention is to design a filter front that will allow me to run dual filters like a ceiling air cleaner.
PM me if you are interested in more $$$ saving info . . .
Steve
I would suggest (2) units at opposite ends of your shop. The size(s) will be dependent on the insulation, sealing, etc . . A non-insulated garage door can be a problem. I think I would try a (2) 10,000btu or 12,000btu. This would give you a way to control the temp & humidity just the way you want it. It will take a few days, but you will figure out what to set each unit on to give you what you want. You pretty much need to find out at what point the 220 vac units are built at. I think they go to 220vac at about 12,000 btu. Smaller than that, most will be 115vac units. Do not waste your money shopping brands. After much research I found that all "window" AC units except for one are made in China. Two Chinese factories now makes all & they "PRIVATE LABEL" them. GE, Samsung, Frigidair, etc . . Try to buy the ones with the flattest front, this will make it easier when you decide to build a better filter holder with a larger area. I use 12" X24" pleated filters designed for a central unit.
My intention is to design a filter front that will allow me to run dual filters like a ceiling air cleaner.
PM me if you are interested in more $$$ saving info . . .
Steve
PenMan1
Member
Here is the deal. You live near Memphis, not nearly as hot or humid as Georgia, but 13K BTU would be a minimum, even in Memphis. If you buy the 13K, 110 VAC. Chances are it would never cycle off, EVEN IN MEMPHIS.
13K is REALLY A MAXIMUM FOR 110VAC (The truth is more like 11K BTU -- READ CAREFULLY!). To keep from kicking circuits, this unit would need to be on a circuit all by itself. Additonally, I have not seen a "heat pump" 110 VAC window unit. For not much more money, you can buy a 18K - 24K that is more energy efficent AND has heat pump capibilities. HP capabilites give you a nice toasty warm (and humidity regulated) shop in the winter as well.
MAKE SURE TO LOOK AT THE SEER TAG. A 230 VAC 18 -24K WILL cost more in initail money outlay, BUT depending on how much you use your shop, The energy savings with the better SEER (230 VAC) unit may ACTUALLY MAKE IT COST LESS DUE TO ENERGY SAVINGS. Sometimes we are penny wise and dollar foolish, IF you plan to stay in your current location more than 24 months AND use you shop regularly, A 110 VAC is a WATE OF MONEY.
They are still a little expensive, BUT the thru-wall minis (we call 'em BABY PTAC) are so quit you don't even know when they are on, regulate humidity very efficently AND THEY QUALIFY FOR "GREEN ENERGY" rebates. Unless the industry changed since I retired from it, NO WINDOW UNITS qualify for the $1,500 rebate. THe VERY BEST of technology comes for Carrier Transicold. It is made very near me and it was originally developed for the buses that carry passengers from airport parking to terminals. In the past ten years this technology has had the best growth in HVAC, because it is the most efficent. After the tax rebate, it may be a viable option.
13K is REALLY A MAXIMUM FOR 110VAC (The truth is more like 11K BTU -- READ CAREFULLY!). To keep from kicking circuits, this unit would need to be on a circuit all by itself. Additonally, I have not seen a "heat pump" 110 VAC window unit. For not much more money, you can buy a 18K - 24K that is more energy efficent AND has heat pump capibilities. HP capabilites give you a nice toasty warm (and humidity regulated) shop in the winter as well.
MAKE SURE TO LOOK AT THE SEER TAG. A 230 VAC 18 -24K WILL cost more in initail money outlay, BUT depending on how much you use your shop, The energy savings with the better SEER (230 VAC) unit may ACTUALLY MAKE IT COST LESS DUE TO ENERGY SAVINGS. Sometimes we are penny wise and dollar foolish, IF you plan to stay in your current location more than 24 months AND use you shop regularly, A 110 VAC is a WATE OF MONEY.
They are still a little expensive, BUT the thru-wall minis (we call 'em BABY PTAC) are so quit you don't even know when they are on, regulate humidity very efficently AND THEY QUALIFY FOR "GREEN ENERGY" rebates. Unless the industry changed since I retired from it, NO WINDOW UNITS qualify for the $1,500 rebate. THe VERY BEST of technology comes for Carrier Transicold. It is made very near me and it was originally developed for the buses that carry passengers from airport parking to terminals. In the past ten years this technology has had the best growth in HVAC, because it is the most efficent. After the tax rebate, it may be a viable option.
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tseger
Member
Steve, PM sent
Andy, are you talking about the same kind of unit I saw at Home Depot that are advertising AC/Heat, or are you talking about something different?
Andy, are you talking about the same kind of unit I saw at Home Depot that are advertising AC/Heat, or are you talking about something different?
PenMan1
Member
Yes... and NO! HD has the worst ones and are also the most expensive ones. If you have a HVAC contractor that you trust, call them. AS FAR AS SAVING MONEY, July is ABSOLUTELY the worst month to replace a unit (busiest time of the year) but a REAL HVAC pro will help you get into a system that works.
pensmyth
Member
OK, I have to chime in on this one. About 3 weeks ago I was working in the shop/garage and it was 86 outside and about 91 in my garage. I told the wife I need to cool things off in the shop. My garage is L shaped. It's 2 1/2 cars wide and 40 feet deep on the outside wall. My shop is in the back half and my antique fire truck and misc items sit up front. The garage is 90% insulated I just have one more roll to install up front.
Anyway I spent the better part of a Saturday going around looking at portable AC units and they all seemed just to small to handle my garage. My last stop was HH Gregg and they had an Amana 15000 btu Ac, Dehumidifier and heater all in one setup. I bought it on the spot. I had to make a 4 inch hole for the exhaust there is no condensation drainage as the unit evaporates the moisture and blows it out the exhaust. I hooked it up and turned it on and set the thermostat to 70. The next day my shop was a comfortable 72. Yesterday it was 92 outside and the shop got 74. I run it non stop 24/7 and its on the same circuit as my whole shop. I run the AC, Lathe and dust collector all at once with no problems. I LOVE my cool shop now! :biggrin:
Anyway I spent the better part of a Saturday going around looking at portable AC units and they all seemed just to small to handle my garage. My last stop was HH Gregg and they had an Amana 15000 btu Ac, Dehumidifier and heater all in one setup. I bought it on the spot. I had to make a 4 inch hole for the exhaust there is no condensation drainage as the unit evaporates the moisture and blows it out the exhaust. I hooked it up and turned it on and set the thermostat to 70. The next day my shop was a comfortable 72. Yesterday it was 92 outside and the shop got 74. I run it non stop 24/7 and its on the same circuit as my whole shop. I run the AC, Lathe and dust collector all at once with no problems. I LOVE my cool shop now! :biggrin:
Attachments
tseger
Member
Andy, nice unit, how is it filtered? One of my concerns is the filtering of the unit I purchase in a workshop environment. How much would something like that set me back?
PenMan1
Member
They vary in price from area to area. Around here, you can get a basic one installed for about $2,500. You want to make sure you get one that qualifies for the rebate( I think 13 SEER or better). On weekends, our area HD and Lowes have hvac reps that will talk to you about it with out pushing to come out for an appointment.
As far as filtrataion, the work just like the unit in your home. In a shop enviroment, you would want to consider an "Air Bear" type filter. Additionally, this type system qualifies as a "home improvement" rather than a "window unit" or "removeable Portable" and the interest from a home equity loan is tax deductible as well. Hitachi makes (or did anyway) makes an excellent thru-wall unit.
The biggest and best portable is the Amana, which is a decent unit (the best SEER out there in poprtable or window units @ 10.5). It is rated for 450 suqare feet capacity and may very well be able to handle that space in Northern enviornments, but in the south they are inadequate.
Down here, the only way to get real cooling in a sizeable shop is with a seperate stand alone system (just because of the dust factor adding to an existing system is not a vialbe option) or a thru-wall unit. Over time, the efficency of SEER 13 vs. 10, will pay for itself several times over in energy savings.additionally these units can handle "smart" thermostats that can be programmed with 4 different programs per day for seven days and can even be accessed over the internet and by smart phone.
The HVAC industry is moving (slowly) toward room by room units because with new home automation technology one can heat and coolo only the areas in use instead of the whole house without hassle.
You may want to read about these at diynetwork.com, etc. Here is a couple of links of how one of the "multi" split units work.
http://www.gharbana.com/split-air-conditioner/result/?q=%20split%20air%20conditioner
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...onditioning+system&um=1&hl=en&sa=X&tbs=isch:1
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tseger
Member
It sounds like this would be ideal, but there is no way I could come up with $2500.
Thanks all for the comments.
Thanks all for the comments.
tseger
Member
BTW what does SEER stand for?
PenMan1
Member
SEER=Seasonal Energy Efficency Ratio, Example 13 SEER is 30% more efficent than 10 SEER. If a 13 Seer unit costs $1000 per year, a 10 SEER would cost $1,428.57 (30% more).
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medemt
Member
Semper Fi Tseger,
A couple of years ago when I built my shop (20' x 25'), I purchased a PTAC unit. These are the units used in a hotel room. Mine is a 15,000 BTU Heat pump type unit. It heats in the winter (with auxillary electrical heat if needed) and cools during the summer. I love the thing. It came with a remote thermostat, an on board thermo, and a remote control (like a TV remote). Since I have a garage on the other side of the wall of the shop, it simply exhausts into the garage. Extremely simple to install. For dust filtering, I simply got some filter roll media and put it inside the cover in front of the intake area.
Don't know if your shop would permit you to use one of these, but you might check them out. I paid around $500 for mine.
Here is a link to a site where I got mine from. There are many out there.
http://www.discountptacs.com/
Good luck,
Dan
A couple of years ago when I built my shop (20' x 25'), I purchased a PTAC unit. These are the units used in a hotel room. Mine is a 15,000 BTU Heat pump type unit. It heats in the winter (with auxillary electrical heat if needed) and cools during the summer. I love the thing. It came with a remote thermostat, an on board thermo, and a remote control (like a TV remote). Since I have a garage on the other side of the wall of the shop, it simply exhausts into the garage. Extremely simple to install. For dust filtering, I simply got some filter roll media and put it inside the cover in front of the intake area.
Don't know if your shop would permit you to use one of these, but you might check them out. I paid around $500 for mine.
Here is a link to a site where I got mine from. There are many out there.
http://www.discountptacs.com/
Good luck,
Dan
PenMan1
Member
If you can get a new PTAC unit for $500 -$750 AND it will work in your shop (half needs to be indoors and half out - like a window unit), I would agree, this would likely be your best solution -IF you application will allow it!