My second trial of a kitless pen

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brainick

brainick

Member
Joined
May 10, 2024
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38
Location
Munich
Hi everybody!

Since I have a little free time, I would like to dedicate my next 8-9 days to improving my pen-making skills. This is my 2nd kitless pen and it is way better than the first one. I have used an acrylic rod from German tobacco pipe manufacturer (pfeifenecke.de) and I love it. Currently I am not able to add clips and other details like brass ring etc. but I will give it a shot later on.

In this pen, you see a Bock 250 nib. The Pen blank is finished with 3M Zona sandpaper and Yorkshire Grit Abrasive Paste (Fine).

IMG_7590.JPEG
 
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Hippie3180 said:
Very well done.
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mark james said:
Excellent artistry. I love the material.
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Thank you both! I am opening threads with a single lead die. What is the general approach to this topic? I have checked some posts here and most people prefer triple leads in terms of efficiency. Are there pens with single-lead threads or eventually should everybody buy double or triple-lead taps and dies? I am just a beginner and 250€ (I mean Tapco M13x.8) for one set triple tap and die set seems too much for me. Or any advice for the more affordable option would be appreciated about tap and dies.
 
brainick said:
Thank you both! I am opening threads with a single lead die. What is the general approach to this topic? I have checked some posts here and most people prefer triple leads in terms of efficiency. Are there pens with single-lead threads or eventually should everybody buy double or triple-lead taps and dies? I am just a beginner and 250€ (I mean Tapco M13x.8) for one set triple tap and die set seems too much for me. Or any advice for the more affordable option would be appreciated about tap and dies.
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I know of folks here in the US who do only single threads. I don't think it's unheard of. The goal is to minimize the number of turns to close the cap. You light stick with single threads for a while until you can swing triple.

Maybe look for someone letting go of a set of tap and die, that's what I did.
 
Excellent work. Nobody would ever guess that this is only your second kitless pen!
Can't wait to see what you do next...
 
brainick said:
Hi everybody!

Since I have a little free time, I would like to dedicate my next 8-9 days to improving my pen-making skills. This is my 2nd kitless pen and it is way better than the first one. I have used an acrylic rod from German tobacco pipe manufacturer (pfeifenecke.de) and I love it. Currently I am not able to add clips and other details like brass ring etc. but I will give it a shot later on.

In this pen, you see a Bock 250 nib. The Pen blank is finished with 3M Zona sandpaper and Yorkshire Grit Abrasive Paste (Fine).

View attachment 373255
Click to expand...
Very subtle elegance. Beautiful work.
 
Hippie3180 said:
I know of folks here in the US who do only single threads. I don't think it's unheard of. The goal is to minimize the number of turns to close the cap. You light stick with single threads for a while until you can swing triple.

Maybe look for someone letting go of a set of tap and die, that's what I did.
Click to expand...
You are right. Maybe I can improve my pen turning with single threads, and then upgrade my tools. At the end of the day, triple threading is not something requires extra skill. Thank you ;)

d_bondi said:
Excellent work. Nobody would ever guess that this is only your second kitless pen!
Can't wait to see what you do next...
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sorcerertd said:
I agree with David. That looks much better than I would expect for a second kitless pen. The blank looks great, and quite well polished.
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Penchant 4 said:
Very subtle elegance. Beautiful work.
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Thank you folks for the nice words! I do love that blank either.

I think, I will try an ebonite blank next week. I have never turned one, curious about it. Not sure but I may leave the surface rough and apply black urushi afterwards. But first, I have to turn the blank into a pen 🙃
 
That's very nice! If you managed making the section, adding rings and finials would be easy, trust me! You may want trying different ideas on a cheap piece of POM (delrin) or similar, until you'll be happy with your skills, design, size etc. (another benefit will be that you'll have the proper mandrels for fixing the pen parts for different stages of fine shaping or finishing, mandrels are useful anyway). Speaking about single vs multiple starts threads, this is just your choice and (later, probably) your client demand, when you'll afford letting him to ask for specific design. That's the same with the clip. I, personally, don't believe anymore in classic clips, as I don't think there are too many people hanging their pens in their inside pockets, so I mainly make clipless pens, but I always add a roll stopper with some significance for the pen. So, on short, first do whatever you are happy with, when your clients will dictate you how and what to do, will be another experience.
 
sorins said:
That's very nice! If you managed making the section, adding rings and finials would be easy, trust me! You may want trying different ideas on a cheap piece of POM (delrin) or similar, until you'll be happy with your skills, design, size etc. (another benefit will be that you'll have the proper mandrels for fixing the pen parts for different stages of fine shaping or finishing, mandrels are useful anyway). Speaking about single vs multiple starts threads, this is just your choice and (later, probably) your client demand, when you'll afford letting him to ask for specific design. That's the same with the clip. I, personally, don't believe anymore in classic clips, as I don't think there are too many people hanging their pens in their inside pockets, so I mainly make clipless pens, but I always add a roll stopper with some significance for the pen. So, on short, first do whatever you are happy with, when your clients will dictate you how and what to do, will be another experience.
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Thank you! Very insightful words. I was thinking, that adding pen clips or finials was harder than making progress, so It is a relief for me to know that. On the other hand, I found the roller stopper very good idea, especially for women (Swarovski stones and Lego parts come to my mind for adding to the cap). Currently I am not selling any pen but I can start with kit pens. Hope the day come when customers have special thread or other custom requests for my bespoke pens.

Greetings from Munich,

Ahmet
 
That is a beautiful pen Ahmet.
I checked out that website, and they have a great variety of material.
Your design is well executed. My only caveat, would be the large step near the section. In my experience, that is a turn off for many pen enthusiasts.
As for the threads, there are many ways to skin a cat, LOL. However, with hand taps, you are limited. I have found that most people want less that 2 turns to cap/uncap. One turn being preferable. You can get one turn with single threads, but it is not very secure or stable. I would try for two turns of the cap. Triple threads are expensive but, with care and the materials we use, the taps and dies last a long time. I've been using the same set for about 7 years. They still working just fine.
As for ebonite, if you've never turned it, have a care. My first time I turned it, my wife nearly divorced me. The smell can be very strong. Try to keep your heat, while drilling and turn, way down. It can take a long time for the off gassing to dissipate.

I hope to see more of your work.
 
I prefer not to add every single pen in a different post (hope it is fine with the rules).

This time I gave a shot for an ebonite blank. It smells very bad (it reminds me of days when I was working at a shipyard rubber department) and I find it hard to polish the material. Maybe the reason is the manufacturer because there were two types of ebonite and I selected inexpensive one. I can say that no one would like to write with any pen with any kind of that odor. When turning and sanding in garage, I opened the garage door for good ventilation. By the way, the section is made with acrylic to add a style.

Another thing I realized with ebony, the nature of the material is that it picks up an electric charge very quickly with a few frictions and therefore always remains dusty. Never thought about that as an engineer :)

Here you can see some scratches on the cap.

Ekran görüntüsü 2024-05-18 150154.png


And this is my stinky pen :) Probably I will request for the return the rest of the ebonites :)

IMG_7613.JPEG
 
brainick said:
I prefer not to add every single pen in a different post (hope it is fine with the rules).

This time I gave a shot for an ebonite blank. It smells very bad (it reminds me of days when I was working at a shipyard rubber department) and I find it hard to polish the material. Maybe the reason is the manufacturer because there were two types of ebonite and I selected inexpensive one. I can say that no one would like to write with any pen with any kind of that odor. When turning and sanding in garage, I opened the garage door for good ventilation. By the way, the section is made with acrylic to add a style.

Another thing I realized with ebony, the nature of the material is that it picks up an electric charge very quickly with a few frictions and therefore always remains dusty. Never thought about that as an engineer :)

Here you can see some scratches on the cap.

View attachment 373363

And this is my stinky pen :) Probably I will request for the return the rest of the ebonites :)

View attachment 373362
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Ebonite smells that way, it's totally normal. Ebonite is made of vulcanized rubber, this means a high sulfur content…thus the smell. Ebonite is a very traditional fountain pen material.
 
darrin1200 said:
That is a beautiful pen Ahmet.
I checked out that website, and they have a great variety of material.
Your design is well executed. My only caveat, would be the large step near the section. In my experience, that is a turn off for many pen enthusiasts.
As for the threads, there are many ways to skin a cat, LOL. However, with hand taps, you are limited. I have found that most people want less that 2 turns to cap/uncap. One turn being preferable. You can get one turn with single threads, but it is not very secure or stable. I would try for two turns of the cap. Triple threads are expensive but, with care and the materials we use, the taps and dies last a long time. I've been using the same set for about 7 years. They still working just fine.
As for ebonite, if you've never turned it, have a care. My first time I turned it, my wife nearly divorced me. The smell can be very strong. Try to keep your heat, while drilling and turn, way down. It can take a long time for the off gassing to dissipate.

I hope to see more of your work.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the tips!

Could you please elaborate on the phrase "the large step near the section"? I just couldn't figure it out.

I am planning to add some kit pens to my website, hopefully I can order new triple lead tap and die from Beaufort Ink later on.
 
brainick said:
Thank you for the tips!

Could you please elaborate on the phrase "the large step near the section"? I just couldn't figure it out.

I am planning to add some kit pens to my website, hopefully I can order new triple lead tap and die from Beaufort Ink later on.
Click to expand...
The step that is just behind the cap threads. In my experience most people don't like the feel of the sharp step. While this can allow a flush cap and body, which may be the priority, you can find a compromise that fits your style.
This is my Lewis model. The cap is a 15mm dia, to the body's 14mm, with 13mm tripple threads. For me, this has worked to a good combination.

IMG_6051.jpeg



IMG_3700.jpeg
 
darrin1200 said:
The step that is just behind the cap threads. In my experience most people don't like the feel of the sharp step. While this can allow a flush cap and body, which may be the priority, you can find a compromise that fits your style.
This is my Lewis model. The cap is a 15mm dia, to the body's 14mm, with 13mm tripple threads. For me, this has worked to a good combination.
Click to expand...
Beautiful pens! I got your point. To be honest, I was vaguely uncomfortable about it from the beginning, because when I tried to write it myself, this area would get caught in my hand, and yes, it's not a nice feeling. My first two pens' body diameter is about 15.6mm just before the threads and I am using 13mm thread. So there is an 1.3mm thickness difference transition at that point. This difference is 0.5mm at your pens.

I will consider this issue for the next projects. Thank you very much.

Your pens' lines seem so smooth and precise. Can you achieve this smoothness with a wood lathe?
 
brainick said:
Beautiful pens! I got your point. To be honest, I was vaguely uncomfortable about it from the beginning, because when I tried to write it myself, this area would get caught in my hand, and yes, it's not a nice feeling. My first two pens' body diameter is about 15.6mm just before the threads and I am using 13mm thread. So there is an 1.3mm thickness difference transition at that point. This difference is 0.5mm at your pens.

I will consider this issue for the next projects. Thank you very much.

Your pens' lines seem so smooth and precise. Can you achieve this smoothness with a wood lathe?
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Morning.
I use a metal lathe for almost all of my pen work. I only use the wood lathe when I need a curved line, and for sanding and polishing.
However, it can all be done well, with practice and a steady hand, on a wood lathe. The metal lathe saves a lot of time and can help with repeatability and production. It also makes it a lot easier to hit that 12.9mm thread tenon without measuring a dozen times, LOL.

Personally, while you can make any pen using a wood lathe, if you are going to follow this custom path you need a metal lathe. I have turned aluminum and even brass on my woodlathe, but it was not easy and it was hard on tools. As you start to add your own metal rings and trim, you will want a metal lathe.
 
Before this pen, I sharpened my carbide tips and, I believe they paid well. According to the recent two pens, the surface is way smoother. I can say that I made it much more slowly and carefully. I tried to keep the step between the body and the section narrower, so the pen became generally thinner. The body diameter is about 14.5mm and the cap is about 15.3mm.

IMG_7706.JPEG
IMG_7704.JPEG
 
brainick said:
Before this pen, I sharpened my carbide tips and, I believe they paid well. According to the recent two pens, the surface is way smoother. I can say that I made it much more slowly and carefully. I tried to keep the step between the body and the section narrower, so the pen became generally thinner. The body diameter is about 14.5mm and the cap is about 15.3mm.

View attachment 373588View attachment 373589
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what is the size of that nib?No6?
 
Hippie3180 said:
I know of folks here in the US who do only single threads. I don't think it's unheard of. The goal is to minimize the number of turns to close the cap. You light stick with single threads for a while until you can swing triple.

Maybe look for someone letting go of a set of tap and die, that's what I did.
Click to expand...
i am trying to find some M13 taps and dies and all i can find is M13/ 1.5 , is that ok for a pen or the threads are going to be huge?
 
MedWoodWorx said:
i am trying to find some M13 taps and dies and all i can find is M13/ 1.5 , is that ok for a pen or the threads are going to be huge?
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M13x1.5 is a little big. If you want to stay to single (normal) thread, I would go to an M13x1. It is a good inexpensive start, but does have its drawbacks. Especially in the amount of turns to remove the cap.
MSC Direct

What you see most people using, are M13x0.8 triple start threads. These are best for getting a quick cap removal, which many clients look for. The huge downside of these is the cost. Cheapest price, is when someone on here sets up a group buy. Otherwise the two places I know of:

Beaufort

M13 x 0.8 - Triple lead die and intermediate tap

Triple lead - thread starts in three positions Split die and intermediate tap (sold as a pair) M2 HSS steel Die requires 1 inch die holder Corresponding plug (bottoming) tap available separately...
www.beaufortink.co.uk www.beaufortink.co.uk

Turners Warehouse
www.turnerswarehouse.com

Tap and Die for Kitless and Custom Pens bespoke pen making |Turners Warehouse

Triple start tap and die M11 M12 M13 M14 M15 jowo tap bock tap m10
www.turnerswarehouse.com
 
darrin1200 said:
M13x1.5 is a little big. If you want to stay to single (normal) thread, I would go to an M13x1. It is a good inexpensive start, but does have its drawbacks. Especially in the amount of turns to remove the cap.
MSC Direct

What you see most people using, are M13x0.8 triple start threads. These are best for getting a quick cap removal, which many clients look for. The huge downside of these is the cost. Cheapest price, is when someone on here sets up a group buy. Otherwise the two places I know of:

Beaufort

M13 x 0.8 - Triple lead die and intermediate tap

Triple lead - thread starts in three positions Split die and intermediate tap (sold as a pair) M2 HSS steel Die requires 1 inch die holder Corresponding plug (bottoming) tap available separately...
www.beaufortink.co.uk www.beaufortink.co.uk

Turners Warehouse
www.turnerswarehouse.com

Tap and Die for Kitless and Custom Pens bespoke pen making |Turners Warehouse

Triple start tap and die M11 M12 M13 M14 M15 jowo tap bock tap m10
www.turnerswarehouse.com
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The price difference between triple and single thread taps/dies is big (about 200euros) that's why i am asking. it looks like these are specialized taps and cannot be found in shops selling machining equipment..
 
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Evening,
Just a thought...... you could try Amazon or Ebay. Go for a M13 x 1mm split die (leads to better thread shape) and M13 x 1 US bottoming tap, paired with a M10 x 1mm (split die again) and M10 x 1mm US bottoming tap. When you've cut the cap threads, you need to take off about 1mm of the threads which will allow the cap to be removed within 1.5 turns. A further advantage is that a single thread will aways produce a pen where the cap and barrel always lines up - ideal if you need a continuous pattern between the cap and barrel.

Regards,
Chriscb
 
Chriscb said:
Evening,
Just a thought...... you could try Amazon or Ebay. Go for a M13 x 1mm split die (leads to better thread shape) and M13 x 1 US bottoming tap, paired with a M10 x 1mm (split die again) and M10 x 1mm US bottoming tap. When you've cut the cap threads, you need to take off about 1mm of the threads which will allow the cap to be removed within 1.5 turns. A further advantage is that a single thread will aways produce a pen where the cap and barrel always lines up - ideal if you need a continuous pattern between the cap and barrel.

Regards,
Chriscb
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Thank you for your input, actually that is what i was thinking. A quick question: why i keep seeing three types of taps ( i.e. intermidiate, bottoming etc.), what are these different taps for?
 
The three taps are used to ease the cutting. Each one has a taper, to lesser degree for each, so that the cutting of the thread is gradual. This is very important with harder materials. For the materials we work on, I only use the intermediate and the bottoming.
Keep in mind that the portion of the thread that is tapered will not be usable, maybe 2mm worth of thread. This is where the bottoming tap comes in. It is full all the way to the end, giving full usable threads.
This can be important in translucent materials, as you want to minimize the length of the threads, which can be visible through the material.

I hope this is clear as mud. ;) Hopefully someone will have some pictures to aid.

If you can only afford one tap, get the intermediate.
 
Evening again! - what they said as regards taps. I tend only to use the bottoming tap for all my threads - section, barrel and cap. As Phil shows in the diagrams, the threads are useable from the tip rather than a third of the way back. Most importantly, when cutting the section thread, you don't want to risk destroying the nib threads (which you could do if using either of the other taps in the set.)

Regards,
Chriscb
 
Chriscb said:
Evening again! - what they said as regards taps. I tend only to use the bottoming tap for all my threads - section, barrel and cap. As Phil shows in the diagrams, the threads are useable from the tip rather than a third of the way back. Most importantly, when cutting the section thread, you don't want to risk destroying the nib threads (which you could do if using either of the other taps in the set.)

Regards,
Chriscb
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Wouldnt the intermediate be more suitable? I mean how you start your threads with that and you are sure that the threading is ok?
 
Umm... I haven't run into threading issues by just using the bottoming or plug tap. Although I do create a chamfer on both the barrel and cap prior to threading. It just eases the start of the tap. Which in effect is exactly what the intermediate and starter taps do, but using them would make the tapped length far longer than I would like.
 
I have a set if triple start dies but I don't use it much. I find that as long as the cap comes off on the third twist people don't mind. Another advantage of single start dies is the pattern always lines up when the cap is on. The next thing I would recommend trying is putting a band on the body of the pen meets the cap. You can start with good aluminum, it cuts easily and polishes well. With metals it's nice to have taps with different tapers but with plastic I don't think it matters much. Bottoming taps work just fine.
 
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