Latest Kitless Rollerball

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Ken Wines

Ken Wines

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
277
Location
Charleston, WV
I've pretty much put blank making on hold and am devoting most of my time towards things in my pen making "Bucket List" This is the latest kitless pen that I have made. The body and cap and nib section are ebony. The body to cap coupling and finals are made from a Tim McKenzie Diamond Cast blank. The Greek Key pattern is laser burned and filled with silver metallic acrylic paint protected by a CA finish. The body - cap threading is M12 x 0.8 quadruple start threads. The nib section - body threads are 3/8" - 40. No taps or dies were used in the making of this pen. I mounted an ER-32 collet chuck perpendicularly on my CNC table directly beneath and centered on the spindle. The threads where cut using a thread mill moving downward in a helical motion. For $21 I can do what $100's of tap and dies can do and more. Using the helical movements the threads can be cut left hand, right handed, single start, multi-start and any combination of the aforementioned. I have written some parametric threading routines that I can plug in variables such as diameter of the hole or tenon to be threaded, diameter of the thread cutter, pitch, number of starts and number of threads to cut. The routine calculates the down and dirty details needed to cut the threads and generates the appropriate G-Code. No need reinventing the wheel every time you want to cut a thread. I know that there are some naysayers when it comes to using technologically driven tools and I've gotten to the point where I really don't care what they think. I really enjoy what I do and will continue doing it. It's one thing to have tools of any sort and another knowing how to use them to their fullest potential. I have some other all wood kitless pens that I might post in the future if there is any interest.


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WOW !!

B*E*A*U*T*I*F*U*L !!!!

You say :- "I have some other all wood kitless pens that I might post in the future if there is any interest."

There DEFINITELY IS interest from this member ; I fully & firmly believe in technology and am NOT a naysayer !!!
 
I have missed seeing your evolution into your take on 'kitless.' I have seen some of it on Facebook, but I am not of fan of that portal and will not post; and I fully agree with ignoring naysayers and those who simply like to argue.

Now, this pen is beautiful!!!!!

I have always been a big fan of patterns that are complete around the blank. To do what you have done in the past with your segmenting and now this is very comforting to see. I love the skills you have to use the equipment you have, no small feat.

Lovely colors and the profile is appealing.

Ken, have fun! Results like this makes the journey well worth it. 🙏
 
Whats not to like. Being able to use tools that most of us can not and to produce such great looking different pens is a treat to see. Now I have to be honest I believe I have seen this pattern done here before by another talented pen maker and he used a different method. I would have to check the archives for I could be mistaken. Anyway you look at it though it is a cool looking WOW pen.
 
A lot of work went into this and the result is exquisite.
So $21 instead of $100's, that sounds like a great deal but one would still need a CNC machine that isn't too cheap from what I understand 😅
 
magpens said:
WOW !!

B*E*A*U*T*I*F*U*L !!!!

You say :- "I have some other all wood kitless pens that I might post in the future if there is any interest."

There DEFINITELY IS interest from this member ; I fully & firmly believe in technology and am NOT a naysayer !!!
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Thank you, Mal! The first all wood pen I made was Black Palm. (ie raw not stabilized). It took the threads quite well when using the single point thread mill cutting method.
 
mark james said:
I have missed seeing your evolution into your take on 'kitless.' I have seen some of it on Facebook, but I am not of fan of that portal and will not post; and I fully agree with ignoring naysayers and those who simply like to argue.

Now, this pen is beautiful!!!!!

I have always been a big fan of patterns that are complete around the blank. To do what you have done in the past with your segmenting and now this is very comforting to see. I love the skills you have to use the equipment you have, no small feat.

Lovely colors and the profile is appealing.

Ken, have fun! Results like this makes the journey well worth it. 🙏
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Thank you, Mark! I have pretty much quit making blanks. I was hoping to get a local apprentice to train who could take over the operation. Not having much luck with that. I just don't have the desire and drive to keep making blanks when there's so many other thinks I would like to do. If you could make a few blanks and sell them that would be great, but what you end up doing is taking orders for more of the same and get stuck pretty much in a rut.

I spent probably close to a month just studying threads. I learned a lot about the shape, depth of cut, and different ways of making them. I took what I had learned and applied it first to the Sherline CNC lathe that I have. I wrote some parametric routines to cut tenons, bore holes, and single and multi-start threading routines.

The Sherline spindle is 3/4" - 16, so I had to use a thread adapter to attach the Beall collet chuck to it. I wasn't real happy with the run out the thread adapter was introducing to the spindle operation. So ... I decide to make an ER32 chuck on the Sherline. If it is used on the machine it made on, run out shouldn't be an issue. I found a good technical drawing that had the specs on the entire ER series of chucks. I made prototype chuck out of UHMW plastic and it worked very well without run out issues. I ordered some 2" Aluminum bar stock and made another chuck out of it. I also ordered some 3" Aluminum and made an ER-50 collet chuck on the Sherline. These things are massive and you can chuck round items up to 1 5/16". Anyway after doing all this work I found out that Beall now makes an ER32 chuck with 3/4" - 16 threading.

When I first discovered the thread mill cutters the light bulb in my head went on and said this is the way you need to cut kitless threads. So I ordered a few of them in different size and pitch ranges. I then tried to find some affordable software to implement their use. I didn't come up with any solutions to that so I thought how hard can it be to do my own G-Code. I've written G-Code in the past and written computer programs to write G-Code. I found some threading examples on the internet and then modified it to accept variables that I could plug in and it would be basically calculate the g code necessary to do the helical interpolation.

Anyway the thread mills are great, since you only putting pressure on one point along the threading helix it affords the opportunity to successfully thread materials that you see others complain about threading.

I guess I said all of that to say this, if I'm really interested in doing something right, I'm willing to spend the time to research and learn all I can about it.
 
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jttheclockman said:
Whats not to like. Being able to use tools that most of us can not and to produce such great looking different pens is a treat to see. Now I have to be honest I believe I have seen this pattern done here before by another talented pen maker and he used a different method. I would have to check the archives for I could be mistaken. Anyway you look at it though it is a cool looking WOW pen.
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JT, when you say "most of us can not" I wonder where that limitation originates? Is it something you can not do because of lack of interest in the subject matter? I could say that I could never paint a landscape, portrait, etc and I have placed a self imposed limitation on my abilities. I could paint if I were willing to devote the time and effort to learn how to do it. Would I be able to do is well as Vincent van Gogh? Probably not, because at some point natural ability and talent will need to be factored into the equation. Some of the words that my father left me that I will always remember are "I can't never could do anything".
 
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Fred Bruche said:
A lot of work went into this and the result is exquisite.
So $21 instead of $100's, that sounds like a great deal but one would still need a CNC machine that isn't too cheap from what I understand 😅
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Thank you, Fred! I already had the CNC machine so the cost me was $21. Doesn't everyone have a CNC machine? ;)
 
walshjp17 said:
Excellent work, Ken. I especially like the RB nib -- it's the best shape I've seen so far. Well done.
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Thank you, John! That is refillable Schmitt nib and I guess its main purpose for the majority of sales is to convert a fountain pen into a rollerball. I like them because you get choose which ink you use with the rollerball. From the kitless pen makers perspective it is so much easier to design the innards of the section and body cavities vs the standard rollerball refill which has several stepped tenons some of which need to be accounted for in the section design.
 
Ken Wines said:
JT, when you say "most of us can not" I wonder where that limitation originates? Is it something you can not do because of lack of interest in the subject matter? I could say that I could never paint a landscape, portrait, etc and I have placed a self imposed limitation on my abilities. I could paint if I were willing to devote the time and effort to learn how to do it. Would I be able to do is well as Vincent van Gogh? Probably not, because at some point natural ability and talent will need to be factored into the equation. Some of the words that my father left me that I will always remember are "I can't never could do anything".
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Well that is an open ended question. A few things come into play. One is the time to learn a new artform. Next is the money to afford tools like CNC equipment. Then just because you get past the first couple you need to develop the skills and have staying power. I am too old to have the last part. You also have to have the desire. Maybe I said it is not for me. Not everyone can throw a 100mph fastball either.
 
jttheclockman said:
Well that is an open ended question. A few things come into play. One is the time to learn a new artform. Next is the money to afford tools like CNC equipment. Then just because you get past the first couple you need to develop the skills and have staying power. I am too old to have the last part. You also have to have the desire. Maybe I said it is not for me. Not everyone can throw a 100mph fastball either.
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Do they not have MakerSpaces in your "neck of the woods" ? Even here in primitive West Virginia they have a few. The "I am too old" seems to be another self imposed limitation. If you aren't interested in learning something new, that is definitely your right and I can respect that. As far as the the "100 mph" fastball reference that goes back to my statement at some point natural ability has to be factored in. If it something that you want to do, you will find a way to do it no matter if you are not the best, fastest, etc at it.
 
Ken Wines said:
Thank you, Fred! I already had the CNC machine so the cost me was $21. Doesn't everyone have a CNC machine? ;)
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Well, not yet. As they get less expensive and smaller, more and more will, just like 3D printers. I'm not anti tech at all. Make a pen with whatever tools you choose. The big guys have been doing it for years now.
the pen - I do like that its a rollerball, not everyone likes to use a FP. The section has a really nice shape also. personally I find the pattern overwhelming, but very well executed. I'd love to see more of what you are making.
i know a couple makers here thread wood and claim long term success. I cant say from personal experience but wouldn't trust it long term.
 
PatrickR said:
Well, not yet. As they get less expensive and smaller, more and more will, just like 3D printers. I'm not anti tech at all. Make a pen with whatever tools you choose. The big guys have been doing it for years now.
the pen - I do like that its a rollerball, not everyone likes to use a FP. The section has a really nice shape also. personally I find the pattern overwhelming, but very well executed. I'd love to see more of what you are making.
i know a couple makers here thread wood and claim long term success. I cant say from personal experience but wouldn't trust it long term.
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The cnc question was meant be rhetorical, just kidding. The thread mill opens up opportunities to thread some of the materials that others that use tap and dies complain about. Just for the record, I do have M11 x 08 thru M14 x 08 triple start taps and dies. When I took a class on making kitless pens a few years back I was puzzled why they used M10 x 1 threading for the section to body threading. It leaves very little room for error and increases the likelihood of failure of the M12 x 0.8 tenon on the body. I decided to try a M10 x 0.5 threading which left more wall thickness on the M12 tenon but still wasn't where I wanted to be. I moved to a 3/8" - 40 thread for this function and am pretty happy with it. You are looking at a 13 - 14 thou thread depth versus a 21 - 22 thou thread depth. Every little bit helps. The first all wood pen was destined to fail from the start if you listen to the experts. It was made from unstabilized black palm. I'll post it here soon.
 
Ken Wines said:
Do they not have MakerSpaces in your "neck of the woods" ? Even here in primitive West Virginia they have a few. The "I am too old" seems to be another self imposed limitation. If you aren't interested in learning something new, that is definitely your right and I can respect that. As far as the the "100 mph" fastball reference that goes back to my statement at some point natural ability has to be factored in. If it something that you want to do, you will find a way to do it no matter if you are not the best, fastest, etc at it.
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Again then please ignore my statement I have lately made some stupid remarks and keep getting called out on them so ignore me. I spoke for myself. Continue what you are doing and I will do what I do. Forget whatever I said Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I tried to compliment you but I guess old times always sneak in.
 
jttheclockman said:
Again then please ignore my statement I have lately made some stupid remarks and keep getting called out on them so ignore me. I spoke for myself. Continue what you are doing and I will do what I do. Forget whatever I said Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I tried to compliment you but I guess old times always sneak in.
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JT, I'm not here to rehash things from the past. The point I was trying to make is if we put limits on ourselves and not try something new (if it's something we want to pursue) then we will never know if we can do it not. Sometimes we are our biggest obstacle to overcome. If I have been what you perceive to have been less than civil in how I presented my point of view on this, I am sorry.
 
Ken Wines said:
The cnc question was meant be rhetorical, just kidding. The thread mill opens up opportunities to thread some of the materials that others that use tap and dies complain about. Just for the record, I do have M11 x 08 thru M14 x 08 triple start taps and dies. When I took a class on making kitless pens a few years back I was puzzled why they used M10 x 1 threading for the section to body threading. It leaves very little room for error and increases the likelihood of failure of the M12 x 0.8 tenon on the body. I decided to try a M10 x 0.5 threading which left more wall thickness on the M12 tenon but still wasn't where I wanted to be. I moved to a 3/8" - 40 thread for this function and am pretty happy with it. You are looking at a 13 - 14 thou thread depth versus a 21 - 22 thou thread depth. Every little bit helps. The first all wood pen was destined to fail from the start if you listen to the experts. It was made from unstabilized black palm. I'll post it here soon.
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I look forward to seeing it.
Your switch to a 3/8x40 makes perfect sense. At this scale an extra 13 thousand is substantial.
my worry about long term would be when the wood sees substantial changes in temp and RH.
from memory - someone here cuts theirs in a similar manner on a metal lathe with the cutter mounted in a rotary tool. Obviously what you are doing would be quicker and easily customized.
 
PatrickR said:
I look forward to seeing it.
Your switch to a 3/8x40 makes perfect sense. At this scale an extra 13 thousand is substantial.
my worry about long term would be when the wood sees substantial changes in temp and RH.
from memory - someone here cuts theirs in a similar manner on a metal lathe with the cutter mounted in a rotary tool. Obviously what you are doing would be quicker and easily customized.
Click to expand...
I had thought about wood movement also. I can imagine that it will happen when the weather changes. From what I've read, movement seems to be more prominent at 90 degrees to the grain direction than in line with it. The pitch of the threads probably won't change much but the diameter of the tenon and hole probably will. The worst case scenario could be an out of round hole and/or tenon. I have no plans of selling any pens of this type. I suppose I will see what happens in the coming months.

The thread mill approach is a real game changer when it comes to shaping the innards of the section which I found to be the hardest task if you are doing it with a series of drill bits. I use a 3/16" end mill to shape the multiple steps in the cavity and then switch to 3/16" shank thread mill to cut the threads at the proper depth for the nib. It requires one bit change during the operation but is a big time and tedium saver. In a couple of minutes you have perfectly shaped section innards.
 
There is an old carpenters saying concerning this and joinery, something like - tight in the winter and loose in the summer. meaning make the joints looser during the winter when the wood is smaller and tighter in the summer when it is larger. Luthiers go to great lengths to control the RH and temp in their shop to keep the wood in the median range while assembling instruments. You may be able to adapt these ideas into your tolerances.
since you aren't selling them , no worries. It would be fairly easy to test with some pieces that you haven't put a lot of work into.
 
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