Is it just me or has this place changed?

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Texatdurango

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To begin with this is just something that caught my attention a few minutes ago so isn't something that has me bent over in anguish. It's more of an observation and a question to get some other perspectives since it might just be that I am missing something.

Seems like the good ole days are gone on the forum. While some have always been tight lipped about sharing ideas, many have not and two years ago if someone posted about being stumped on a particular design several would post and help a fellow member out. Now it seems like so many are working on their "secret" blanks and so busy selling them to other members that they are reluctant to help another pen maker out when they try to make one themselves. Have we stopped being a band of kindred souls with common goals and interests sharing thoughts and ideas, seeing each other as perspective customers instead?

The post that caught my eye was in the advanced forum where a fellow asked about a herringbone design. The design doesn't appeal to me so I have never made one so can't offer anything but I have seen dozens over the past couple years, enough that surely one of the 200+ readers to his post has an idea how to make one of these blanks and yet no one has offered a thing.

So, am I overreacting to something that is of no consequence or does anyone else see this change in the forum?
 
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I continue to get loads of unreserved help from lots of members. I've personally never posted a request for help that wasn't answered -- even a few from you!
 
I kinda agree with this. Eagle was one who would not share his secrets (for a specific reason) directly, but would little by little if a person tried hard. Eagle's point was that he wanted people to try, learn and expand beyond what he did. Eagle felt that most people would not expand on an idea if they just copied it.

. . But, Eagle never kept a design to himself for the purpose of "this is mine and I don't want anyone else doing this". While I am not quite in Eagle's camp skillwise, I agree philosophically, - but me being me - am a pushover on sharing techniques . . if I happen to know any that anyone wants.
 
Mmmmm, good question George.
But perhaps the question needs to be broken down a bit first.
The 360 herringbone pattern is a relatively new design that as far as I'm aware, only one person has really mastered. So perhaps until it is figured out by the masses should remain a saleable and even secretive design by it's master.
Celtic Crosses and Feathered blanks aren't being sold cos most people have understood how to do it. The full herringbone will get to that stage eventually. Same thing.

One of my pet hates has always been $%^*&*^% lurkers!!!! We all freely share hard earned methods and ideas and these sods are just quietly sitting in the background and making money from our labours.
This particular topic was raised a while ago and I was one of the few that really wanted most topics only viewable by ACTIVE members.

As far as sharing goes, this place still rocks. 99% of all I know about pens I learnt here and I'm sure that the rest will be learnt from here too. I think most people are eager to share ideas and like me, even get a buzz from it.
Someone recently posted a thanks for a little pictorial I did and it really made my day. So much so that I just wrote a new article very recently that Keith is working on at the moment.

But I agree, this place has changed a lot. But I honestly believe that it has been for the good. In the main, anyway.

I'm gonna watch this topic like a hawk, as I'd really like to see what others have to say about it. I just hope it doesn't get sour:rolleyes:
 
keep in mind that 200 views does nto mean 200 people have read the post. it could be 10 people that have checked back 20 times each. At the time I looked at the post it was surrounded on both sides my multiple posts that contained questions that where freely answered. Even the post in question has considerable attention to the fact no answer was coming. I do not see this as the rule but rather the exception. In effect evidence contrary to your concern that information is no longer shared on the group.
 
I don't know - Everytime I see the words "Help" and "Alumilite" - I can almost guarantee that Curtis has responded to it at least once. Every time I have asked for help - for instance trying to remove a coupler I had pushed in backwards on a pen kit - there were at least 3 useful responses within a couple of hours.

I'm sure there are examples that confirm your hypothosis, but IMO, by and large the community helps each other out quite a bit. I do think though, and have felt this way for quite a while, that unless a post is on the first page, the likelyhood of it being answered deminishes greatly. I know that all questions/posts can't be shown on the main page, but during the day, I don't dive into the forums to look for posts I haven't read. Perhaps the symptom you mentioned is a consequence of that and of people simply being busy - afterall it is warming up outside and folks are surely hitting the shop more.
 
I wish I knew how to do something special, but I don't, but if I can help I always chime in. As for learning about pen turning, I have learned almost everything I know from people on the forums responding to my questions and by reading the tutorials. I have gotten some very nice supplies at very good prices from members and have, and continue to participate in group buys.

R. Herrell, Visexp and Hank Lee have been extremely helpful to me in their responses to questions as have a lot of other folks.

I've only been a member for about 3 months so I can't comment on the good ole days.

There are still a lot of things I would like to learn that I struggle with, but not because people don't respond. I do think a lot of people that are active on the forums are also sellers, but I think that is a good thing.

The one thing I would like to learn about that I haven't seen a lot of help on is how to thread barrels so I can make a completely kitless pen. I would like to see someone that has the skill and the time to write a tutorial on how to do that.

I've learned, from the forums;

1. How to drill on the lathe
2. How to square blanks on the lathe
3. How to turn on center instead of with mandrels
4. How to do onlays or inlays
5. How to make segmented pens (still working on it)
6. How to make closed end pens.
7. How to improve my photography and software to use.
8. How to set up a website.
9. Where to buy supplies and equipment and what kind to buy.
10. How to do a good CA/BLO finish.
11. I've even kinda figured out how to cast my own blanks, but I haven't tried it yet.
12. That a lot of guys and gals on the forums can make some incredible things to both inspire me and frustrate me. (but that is all about me lol).
13. How and why to sharpen and keep sharp tools.

I'm sure there are a lot of other things I have learned, but I don't remember them all. When I first started I could barely turn a cigar pen. Now I can make some pens that I am proud of. I attribute it to my own perseverence and talent, but none of it would have been possible without the help I have received from the forums.

That's my 2 cents worth and probably overpriced at that.

Thanks to everyone for all their help.
 
So...... so far it sounds like I may be seeing something that isn't as big a deal as I thought. As I said, I just read the other thread and to be honest wasn't aware that their was a "new" herringbone design and that only one or a few knew the technique.

Skip, I like your idea about "active" members being allowed to view certain forums. Might be a great way to get more members actively involved.
 
aggromere said:
...I've learned, from the forums;

1. How to drill on the lathe
2. How to square blanks on the lathe
3. How to turn on center instead of with mandrels
4. How to do onlays or inlays
5. How to make segmented pens (still working on it)
6. How to make closed end pens.
7. How to improve my photography and software to use.
8. How to set up a website.
9. Where to buy supplies and equipment and what kind to buy.
10. How to do a good CA/BLO finish.
11. I've even kinda figured out how to cast my own blanks, but I haven't tried it yet.
12. That a lot of guys and gals on the forums can make some incredible things to both inspire me and frustrate me. (but that is all about me lol).
13. How and why to sharpen and keep sharp tools....
Click to expand...
Good grief... you've learned all that since March! It took me that long to get a decent CA finish down pat. :biggrin:

You mentioned threading pen bodies and caps, were you thinking of using taps and dies or cutting with a lathe and thread cutters? If using taps and dies, I could help out a little since I've done several dozen "kitless" designs. Ask away in the "advanced forum" and see what happens.
 
I want to be able to use taps and dies. I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size. Any help would be greatly appreciated. A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent. They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.
 
Having only been a member for a bit under two years, I can't compare things to "the good old days". I can say that folks on this forum have been a tremendous help in both learning new techniques and inspiring improvement on my part. I turn only as a hobby, but greatly appreciate all that the many members have been willing to share. Even if folks only shared the really mainstream stuff (which doesn't seem to be the case), it would still be a great resource for many of us that don't live on the cutting edge. I'll close here by saying "thanks a million" for everything the IAP members have shared with me for the past couple of years. Maybe someday I'll know something myself that is worthy of passing along.
 
aggromere said:
I want to be able to use taps and dies. I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size. Any help would be greatly appreciated. A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent. They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.
Click to expand...

I'll put a few words together in the advanced forum and see if helps you any. May be tomorrow before I post though.
 
I think part of this thread is pointing at me and I would like to address it. When I was trying to learn to make the herringbone 360, I spent roughly 3 months trying to get it together. I asked a couple of the guys that had made them if they could give me a hand, 2 people got back to me and the one that was doing it the way I wanted to do it asked me to not do a tutorial or to teach anyone how to do it. I gave my word to him and I stand by it to this day. I have had severral people contact me privately and ask me for the instructions and I tell them all the same thing, All I ask is that they make the same promise that I did and that they show me what they have done so far in working at it. I will not give instructions for the build, but I am wiling to help someone that has attempted to make a blank and is stuck. I have even gone so far as to send one member a blank that was in the middle of the build so they could use it for reference. As far as I am concerned, the herringbone 360 is a blank that can be made by anyone, if they are willing to put in some time to try it and not just look for a tutorial to copy. If the instructions are posted in public, they will soon be selling them in the supply houses and will be published in books. I am not going to help that along. In the time I have been making them, I have also designed and built 3 different jigs for making them tighter and to make them look better, I am not going to post pictures of them either, but am willing to talk with someone that wants to make the blanks and help them design their own jigs. So to wind this one up, if you want to make the blank, do the work and try it yourself, if that doesn't work out for you, contact the guys that are making them and ask them for some advice, don't ask for a kit or for a tutorial. I have never said no to helping someone that is willing to try for themselves first. Also, a PM is going to get an answer but I'm not going to answer a question in public, I have contacted some that have posted questions and answered what I could. You wouldn't want me to go back on my word , would you?
 
aggromere said:
I want to be able to use taps and dies. I bought a set, but I'm thinking they are the wrong size. Any help would be greatly appreciated. A good start would be what size taps and dies to use on a jr gent and a gent. They seem to be the best kits for me to start with.
Click to expand...
What type of taps did you buy? The cap is a special triple start thread that you won't find in the stores. The numbers on my taps are M10x1 for the nibs and M12x2,4(P-O,8) for the caps. I bought my set from someone that bought them in a group buy that JJudge did a while back, I think Daniel was also doing one.
 
I haven't reached the point where I can share much except beginner concepts.
(You guys would cringe if you actually watched me turn.) But I chime in where
I can, even if it's just to back up an opinion already stated or to offer a different
experience. Most of what I've learned was by lurking here and then joining last
year as well as on another similar forum.
I don't think I've ever been refused an answer when I asked something though. And
I can't imagine refusing to give info if I have it. Like Skip said, it's a kick to have
someone value your opinion or experience.
 
I have only been here a couple of months, and I have been to a lot of forums, and this is the most generous forum I have ever belonged to!!! I have not asked for anything, and have had two members help me out with some product and or kits. I get answers to all my questions, and always get complimented on my stuff. There are many good people on here with a wealth of information. And at the get together, it was the same.
 
George,
I can't say much to this fact other than every question I have asked either directly on a post or PM has been anwered. You, in fact have been instrumental in reviving my interest and love in penmaking. I think the frustration is and will be when a general question is asked, with no research to previous threads, current and past articles, etc. I can see when techniques are new to say "hey how do you do this"? The really cool thing that has been repeated on this forum is "try this" or "read this post". Figuring things out for yourself can be a real pain in the butt ant times, but is is truly rewarding.

Peter, I can only offer what I know on my kitless experience, but I don't feel like I know anything compared to those who have gone and done before me. Those folks have posted all I know, and I believe that is why the advanced pen making forum was created.

George, I can send you a rough draft of something on a "How to...my kitless experience" for your review, comment and approval if you would like. Please let me know. I still believe that this is a top notch forum, and I have learned quite alot of things from it, and from the people who are a part of it.
 
Daniel said:
keep in mind that 200 views does nto mean 200 people have read the post. it could be 10 people that have checked back 20 times each. At the time I looked at the post it was surrounded on both sides my multiple posts that contained questions that where freely answered. Even the post in question has considerable attention to the fact no answer was coming. I do not see this as the rule but rather the exception. In effect evidence contrary to your concern that information is no longer shared on the group.
Click to expand...
I believe "views" are per unique user.
 
Confession of a lurker... I guess.

skiprat said:
One of my pet hates has always been $%^*&*^% lurkers!!!! We all freely share hard earned methods and ideas and these sods are just quietly sitting in the background and making money from our labours.
This particular topic was raised a while ago and I was one of the few that really wanted most topics only viewable by ACTIVE members.
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant as a criticism of the opinion offered by skiprat. If you get that impression after reading I have failed in making my point. "IF" you agree to this... read on.

Hello, my name is Dale, and I'm a lurker. (Now you all say "Hello Dale" to your screen.)

I have been following this site since just before last Christmas. I stumbled upon it, and penturning for that matter, more by accident than by design; and I am thankful that I did. The members of this site have opened up for me, an activity that I might not otherwise have pursued (not that my wallet would have complained!) and that would have been sad for me. I have found an unexpected pleasure in crafting scores of pens, almost all of which have been gifted to family and friends to this point.

I have spent countless hours following threads that were meaningless to me at first; but the more I read, the more I understood, and the more I appreciated what was being offered. As I absorbed the information being offered in response to questions posed by other "newbies", I could reap the benefit without posting those questions myself. And by searching through past topics, I often found the answers I wanted without having to bother you by asking the same question again for the umpteenth time.

My point is that "lurking", by my definition at least, is a natural stage in the learning progression. As a group you have taught me turning and finishing techniques; provided health and safety tips; made me aware of the nuances of kits and platings; and other things too numerous to mention. Most importantly, you have allowed me to participate, albeit quietly so far, in a community rich in talent, generosity, and humour. I thank you all for that.

More than a few decades ago, as a fledgling member of a high school band, I spoke to my father about getting me a better instrument. His reply, roughly translated, was that I didn't need a hundred dollar horn when I only had a two-bit lip. Well, when I look at the craftsmanship and artistry of people like skiprat... that's the hundred dollar horn. As soon as my skills transcend the two-bit lip level, and I think I'm just about there, you'll start to hear my toot coming from the back rows.

Thanks for reading,
Dale :musical-note:
 
Hi,

Perhaps there is something that migh give this impression that thing had change. Trully, we see more hand made blank for sale that we use to have. But at the same time we also see a lot of new idea. I agree with those that prefer us to at least try before we just ask " wow how did you do it".

This being said, i never had anyone refuse to answer a private question if i ask a certain tip or talk with them about my progress and letting them know where i'm stuck. Everyone i asked just freely and happylly put me on the right track, without giving me the whole answer. And that forces me to try and learn.

Add to that all the great "creators" that just give away all their talent (Russ, Yoyospin and more....) altough they still sell their creations. Well i think we don't take the time enough to thanks them.

So i tell you all.....

Thank you...
 
I guess I am like some others on here. I really don't think I know enough to be of much help, but I am more than willing to if I can. What I can do is offer encouragement and give a few "that a boy's" for the folks here who seem to be able to do anything and everything. I have asked for help a few times. Each time I got help from several members, including Neil. I can't speak about the good ole days. I do hope we are living in them now though.
 
I think there is just as much a "brotherhood" here as has ever been in my time here.
I see basic questions asked over and over again, only to be answered over and over.
Though, perhaps,maybe if someone has a lot of time and effort and thought in a special idea, they are
not overly eager to blurt it out and disclose all the details for everyone to pick up like a penny off the street.
People do change, and that includes any of us.The longer you are around something, you become more familiar with it and maybe some of the sparkle fades away.
My perception of penmaking has changed a lot in the 3 years I have been a member here.
Maybe after a period of time you have become jaded or perhaps more critical in your mind of what does or does not go on. Just a hypothetical statement, not my opinion of you.
Perceptions and viewpoints change. People also change, in general.
Ideas and methods shift,and so can our focus.
The forum would be stagnant if it stayed the same for years, and did not change. And change is inevitable.
 
Guess it is my turn to throw my .02 in. Been a member since 4/26/09. Since that time I have come from a wanabe to an average pen turner. Would not be to this point were it not for this forum and some of the most amazing craftsman sharing their work. This being said, not one has sent me by mail, fax or PM, step by step instructions on any design that I may inquire about. But, either by phone, pm or on the public thread, they have answered any question(s) that I have had. This forum has given me the courage to at least venture out of my comfort zone. Spent the good part of the day trying something I never thought could be done until I ventured onto this site. So, my hats off to you who have offered, inspired, directed and prodded me to this point!! Oh, as far as the herringbone goes...............I'll just buy one, then I will try to see how it is made!!:biggrin:
 
George,
The biggest change I've noticed over the last few years is the level of goofing around. There used to be much more casual conversation and threads often went far astray with good natured banter. Kind of like Ole Doc Holiday on this thread but often much further out in left field. This is still the best forum I've found and I check in every chance I get. I really love to see whats being done and all the new ideas being developed. Some of the folks here are really out on the edge and I don't blame them if they hold an idea close to the vest for a while. Another thing that has changed and I think for the better is we don't see the instant request for a tutorial as soon as a pen is posted that used to be quite prevalent. I expect we'll see more changes as time goes on and different people join or fade away but I believe the IAP will be my home page for some time to come.
 
I've been a member for a little more than a month. Hadn't turned anything before 2 months ago. I wouldn't have a clue about any changes. I do know that when I have questions, if they aren't directly answered by searching previous posts or asking in a new post. You will most definately get them thru PMs.

From my one on one dealings with the few I've had pleasure of dealing with I think everyone here does to the best of his/her ability without overstepping the bounds of betraying someones secrets.

Now if I could only become someones field tester........ lmao.

James
 
I am very new to this site, I'm just now getting started. I try to look in every day or so. Sometimes I log in and sometimes I dont. The one thing that I can say with out a dout is that this forum is bye far the best about sharing, and giving help. So thanks for all that I have read and for all the question that i know I will have. Thanks
 
As one who has been around longer than many, I would have to say that I haven't noticed the type of change that George is talking about except in a certain few specific isolated instances.

My impression is that most all questions still get plenty of responses and only a very limited few don't draw much discussion......for whatever reason. Seems to me that members are just as generous with their knowledge and expertize as they have always been......again with the exception of a few isolated situations. I do think that maybe there are not quite so many questions being asked as was the case in the past; but I attribute that to the fact that there is a tremendous body of information built up in the archived posts and in the IAP library and a lot of folks are getting their answers there rather than by querying the general membership.

I would certainly agree that in other ways IAP has changed over the years. Part of it is due to the tireless efforts of Jeff and others to make improvements to the forum and part of it is just the natural change that evolves as the membership changes. Old members move on and new members come on board with new ideas and new ways of doing things.

George: I think you may have latched onto a few situations that might not be representative of the general performance of the forum. I think the good old days at IAP were great and five years from now when today "IS" the good old days, I expect I will be singing the same tune.:wink:
 
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I personally don't see what George is suggesting. For basic things that are common people are quick to answer and offer opinions unrestrained. For more complicated things, I see the "teach a man to fish" mentality, which is what I love.
 
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i share what i know and learn what i don't know. a lot of people here are in business. it is understandable that they want to keep the process of a unique sellable item a secret. just makes good business sense. once a lot of people figure out the secret, then they may feel more comfortable sharing their expertise. we all made a first pen. we all screwed up some pens (a lot in my case) to learn a better way. some of the folks here have probably spent hundreds of hours perfecting a blank be it segmented or cast, and invested a whole bunch of money. they should be able to keep their secret for awhile to recoup some of their investment. that sounds fair to me anyway. i have seen questions posted to dawn and ed about casting techniques, and to others about a segmented style. it seems that even though the answers could cost them sales, they have usualy been genrously answered.
so here are my thoughts.....i appreciate the answers that have been given freely to further this endevour, and, i appreciate the secrets being witheld for reasons i am not experienced enough to understand yet. yea, i want to know it all now but i respect the fact i dont. i want everyone to share everything they know so i don't have to go through that learning curve but i haven't even began to pay my dues yet. i think as my skills improve, that most secrets will reveal themselves. untill then, i'm happily surprised by the "secret" blanks and the mysterious way in which they were made. gives me hope that i will get better and that all those "secret keepers" will keep doing what they do best.....encourage and inspire the rest of us to be better tomorrow than we are now......bear
 
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