carbine tools

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penmaker1967

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hi guys I was wondering where is the best place to get a set of carbine tools I think I am ready to upgrade my turning tools
thanks for the help
 
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sbwertz

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There are several IAP members who make carbide tools that are less expensive than the commercial ones, and just as good, if not better. Or, if you can do simple metalworking, you can take a piece of 3/8" steel or aluminum or brass and grind a notch in it, drill and tap it, and make your own for a few dollars. My husband made a set for each of my blind turners who just got their own lathes. He can make everything except the diamond cutter handles.
 

mecompco

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If you're going to spend money, I would look into T Shadow's "Magical Skew". Designed to cut at a "skew-like" angle, it can also be used as a flat scraper. One of these, with an R2 cutter is (IMHO) all you need to make pens. Oh, and I'll echo Sharon, these tools are easily made, even with hand tools (hacksaw and file), drill and tap. Good, reasonably priced cutters are available at AZ Carbide. Hope this helps!

Michael
 

leehljp

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For people not skilled in sharpening or who do not have the equipment to sharpen, carbides do very well. They stay sharp much longer, but those with the skill of sharpening can sharpen HSS tools much finer than carbide can be sharpened in general use. And the difference can be felt in turning.

As stated earlier, carbide is not an upgrade (in sharpness) but it does cut longer at the level of sharpness it has.
 

Sly Dog

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For people not skilled in sharpening or who do not have the equipment to sharpen, carbides do very well. They stay sharp much longer, but those with the skill of sharpening can sharpen HSS tools much finer than carbide can be sharpened in general use. And the difference can be felt in turning.

As stated earlier, carbide is not an upgrade (in sharpness) but it does cut longer at the level of sharpness it has.

Well said, Hank.

I started with the 3 tool carbide set from Rockler because I was not skilled at sharpening. I liked it and still do, but since then (1 year ago) I have purchased 2 HSS tools from Thompson and have improved my sharpening skills a bit. When I use a really sharp skew or spindle gouge it is noticeably better at turning any pen blank material than the carbide IMO. It's like buttah.:wink:

Good luck!

Russ
 

greenacres2

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I like my Magical Skew from T Shadow, but i find it a little large for pens after i get the blanks turned a bit. I then switch to 3/8" bars from NC Woodturning (NC Woodturning Tools - International Association of Penturners). John is also a member here (user hanau), and i really like the smaller size for finishing. I did have him make my bars a little longer than his normal (2 or 3" longer i think???).
Still trying to get the hang of sharpening HSS--and when i get it right it is better than fresh carbide. I just don't get it right consistently enough!!
earl
 

bsshog40

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I have 2 sets of easy wood tools. The micro set and the professional set. The micro sets are the perfect size for pens. I used them to turn my antler and have used them on acrylic. They work very well but I still like going back to my regular hss tools when turning wood. I bought the large professional set to try on a bowl one day. Haven't used those yet, just bought to have.
 

More4dan

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Magicbob

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I laugh every time I read where a new turner wants advice on what carbide tool to buy, and the old-timers chime in. "That is no way to turn or learn to use a skew, or use "Real tools"
I wonder if they are still driving a Model T or even a horse.

Refusing to embrace the advances in technology is totally up to them. (Of course they are not using a treadle lathe)

I am not saying one is better than the other, but both should be accepted.

At tool shows and demos I have turned tapers, rolled beads, cut coves and even turned captive rings. All using my carbide tools.

For pen turning, I believe and have a few hundred customers that agree, it is hard to beat a Magical Skew.

The advantages of carbide are:
*No grinder and jig needed
*Always sharp (just turn to a new edge or change the insert)
*Faster learning curve

Just my thoughts
BTW, I can use a "Real" skew
 
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leehljp

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Bob,

I admire what you are doing and what you do - not for just money but the furthering along the skill of turning.

I don't drive a model T or have a horse. I haven't owned a horse since 1960. My wife does say that I am obsessive in hair splitting over words! (and I am. - My kids say I should have been a lawyer.) My wife and kids say (and rightly so) that I am the first to buy new technology when it comes out. And I often am.

I have several carbide insert tools. I don't have a Magic Bob as I had not seen them advertised before I bought the several tools I now have. Before I bought my first carbide insert tool, I was forced to learn what razor sharp was - not as an expression but as a fact. In the testing to find that sharpness and repeat sharpening at that level, I developed a "feel" or a "feedback feel" from the tool that was not there prior to that on the same tools. I do not get that "feedback feel" on carbide inserts but I do get the same feel from carbide inserts that I did on my tools that I had before I learned how to get razor feedback feel.

In the highly technical descriptions of "carbide inserts" I still read of the nature of carbide structure that does not equal that of HSS or other, although the carbide does maintain its sharpness much longer.

I really don't care if it is copper, aluminum, steel, cast iron, carbide or HSS. I am not partial to a metal. I am partial to SHARPNESS in its finest degree. To be honest, I never needed that until I made one specific pen and I needed that. I did not know that I needed that at the time. But I kept getting unacceptable results from normal sharpening. Not knowing what to do, and not knowing what questions to ask the experts, and there were a few here with that knowledge at the time, I resigned myself to find out what kind of sharpness would split a falling scarf in half. :eek: I didn't attain that, but I did learn what a razors edge was. To me, a razors edge is this: I can carefully touch and pick up a carbide tool by the edge of the carbide blade (new) with my fingers; I cannot on a properly sharpened HSS tool.

That is not horse and buggy.

That said, and as previously stated, I did not need that on most turnings, and for most people who do not need that level of sharpness, carbide tools do great. It is a big undertaking to invest in and learn how to sharpen tools, and carbide inserts move people into fine pen turning much faster. So I do applaud that 100%. And I do let people know that there is another level to sharpness also.

Lastly, I know that technology continues to develop. I do not know what technology has reached in carbide insert development in the past two years. I suspect that the writing in the "WoodPeckers" end mill insert "might" be on this level of sharpness. When razor sharpness gets there on carbide inserts, I will jump on it. But I will test it by - can I pick up the tool by the insert with my bare fingers, or will it cut my fingers before I get there?
 

Wildman

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This old man has nothing against carbide tools and feel they do have a place in woodturning. I own one carbide tool with two different cutters, and just haven't got the hang of it!

Packard Woodworks: The Woodturner's Source: Shear Scrapers

Magicbob forgot to mention if shop for bargains or make your own tools, cost of cutters, little more expensive than conventional turning tools. While carbide tool should last a life time those cutters need replacing even with touching up with diamond card. Yes, carbide do excel turning some materials like antler, bone, stone and many exotic dense woods.

Started out with carbon steel turning tools and now only have HSS and few exotic steel tools. Frist thing that made sense to me was, "get a smooth bevel on your tools without facets." Second was when in doubt resharpen your tool(s).

Expensive tools do not turn any better than inexpensive tools if dull! Bottom line you need sharp tools regardless of steel tool made of to turn!
 

wood-of-1kind

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The "razor sharp" that one gets on HSS tools is lost the moment that you make contact with the "material" being cut. Carbide keeps on cutting and cutting without the need of sharpening. Unless you turn for one second and then feel the need to resharpen again, carbide is the way to go. Regardless what tool choice you make, just enjoy the turning experience.
 

TonyL

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The "razor sharp" that one gets on HSS tools is lost the moment that you make
contact with the "material" being cut.

I tell this to many of the folks that privately ask me about HSS (Doug Thompson's and DWays are what I own). I will sharpen my roughing gouge at least twice per barrel and my skews 3 to 5 times per barrel. My final passes always have a freshly sharpened edge. I do a little less so with wood, but the brittle stuff and/or home-made hybrids, I am constantly sharpening (and that is with using both sides of the heel and toe making planing/shearing cuts). The time I expend in sharpening is made up with much less sanding and polishing.

I have family that are machinists. They use C-5 carbide. Their shops buy it from MSC Industrial. If I can find inserts in their catalogue that are compatible with my tools, I am going to give them a try. I also "dump" the inserts quicker than some of the folks that I have turned with. I haven't find re-sharpening the inserts on CNB or Trend Diamond card to return the original edge - some folks seem to have excellent results. It could be just my lack of skills. The above is just what I find to work for me. I am always willing to learn and try new things.
 

Shock me

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The "razor sharp" that one gets on HSS tools is lost the moment that you make contact with the "material" being cut. Carbide keeps on cutting and cutting without the need of sharpening. Unless you turn for one second and then feel the need to resharpen again, carbide is the way to go. Regardless what tool choice you make, just enjoy the turning experience.

Truth
 

Wildman

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You don't need or want a razor sharp edge on your conventional turning tools! Yes, there are so many articles and videos claiming to teach you how to put a razor sharp edge on your turning tools.

To further emphasize my point just look at turning tool geometry. We are not using razor blades or scalpels, because the edge on those tools will not hold up while turning without breaking.

http://www.woodturnersofolympia.org/uploads/1/0/8/4/10843369/guide_for_grinding_angles.pdf

This article explains pretty well what you need to know, and why don't want a razor sharp edge.

https://suncatcherstudio.com/sharpening-tests-for-tools/

If were talking about burr on the end of a turning not lasting but a second or two certainly would agree!
 

leehljp

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You don't need or want a razor sharp edge on your conventional turning tools! Yes, there are so many articles and videos claiming to teach you how to put a razor sharp edge on your turning tools.

To further emphasize my point just look at turning tool geometry. We are not using razor blades or scalpels, because the edge on those tools will not hold up while turning without breaking.
http://www.woodturnersofolympia.org/uploads/1/0/8/4/10843369/guide_for_grinding_angles.pdf

This article explains pretty well what you need to know, and why don't want a razor sharp edge.
https://suncatcherstudio.com/sharpening-tests-for-tools/

If were talking about burr on the end of a turning not lasting but a second or two certainly would agree!

The "razor sharp" that one gets on HSS tools is lost the moment that you make contact with the "material" being cut. Carbide keeps on cutting and cutting without the need of sharpening. Unless you turn for one second and then feel the need to resharpen again, carbide is the way to go. Regardless what tool choice you make, just enjoy the turning experience.

No, I don't put a burr on them. I was overseas (Japan) in an area where there were no lathes to be found anywhere near where I was living, so I basically developed my own habits and techniques, borrowed from a Japanese master craftsman that I met a few years before I started turning pens. And Japanese do sharpen them razor sharp. (Razor sharp, my term, not his/theirs). I do see from your links (and I read through them) that you must have been assuming that I was using razor blade thin tools. NO. I am using razor sharp edges that I don't pinch with enough force to pick up without cutting my fingers. Not razor thin tools, razor sharp tools. And no, they do NOT dull in 1 second! Using a reference to "dull in 1 second" is a mis-characterization and misleading of real facts.

Shortly after I first met this Japanese master craftsman mentioned above, (who also was an acquaintance of Sam Maloof), I went to his house and saw some of the most beautiful custom furniture and cabinets that I have ever seen. He was an art teacher at a University in Osaka but he loved woodworking. He took me into his basement to show me a few tools that he had at home (not his shop). I was amazed at the approximately 2" wide ribbons at least a meter long (nearly 40") from his hand plane. As you probably know Japanese hand planes are not adjustable by knobs, but by tapping the sides or ends with a hammer.

He had a dozen ribbons so thin that I could actually read newspaper through it with ease. (I took some home and easily read an article through it.) I commented to him on how sharp his plane must be. He answered back: "It is not that sharp. I will call you when I sharpen it and I will show you what sharp IS." A couple of weeks later he called. He said: "It is sharp now!" He went into an explanation along these lines: "You know that wood moves with humidity changes over a couple of days". I said yes. He then said "Well, I planed this board three days ago and it was smooth on the edge surface. Now since the humidity has risen yesterday, there will be approximately 1 or 2/1000mm difference between the hard and soft grain of the wood. I will shave the 1 or 2/1000mm off of this board for the whole length. He did, right before my eyes. Not solid ribbons but strings - 7 or 8 strings - the high spots caused by humidity change. (If you are not familiar with this type of movement, there are books on the subject of wood movement.)

You do not get that sharp without being razor sharp and all the explanations in the world do not invalidate the way master craftsmen in Japan sharpen their blades or how sharp their blades are. And with the right material, they do not lose their razor sharpness on the first cut.

My method of keeping razor sharpness is this: I razor sharpen it; I cut for about 30 seconds at the most, swipe the end of the blade twice on .5 or .3 micron sandpaper (mounted on a flat tempered glass plate) cut/turn for 30 seconds (more or less) and swipe, twice, repeat. I do this all the time as a matter of habit. As one of the panels in the links provided by you, says this "When turning bowls below 1/8" (3 mm) thick, the tool needs to be very sharp – requiring very little pressure. If you have to apply much pressure, the piece may explode or crack."

I let the tool cut, very very light on pressure - exactly as that quote describes. The tool does the cutting, not force. I am not in a hurry, precision is more of my requirement than speed. On all of my turnings.

AS a couple of guys have mentioned before, no need to sand, as no sandpaper will get it as smooth as the cutting edge of a sharp tool.

I do realize that there are differences in techniques around the world and those of the US are just as valid as those of other countries, and other countries techniques are just as valid as those here. Videos and articles that say it is not necessary might be true for normal USA technique use. But not the only way.
 
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Wildman

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Lee have to stand by my post, but enjoy reading your post. My experience on mainland Japan, other than cold weather at Mount Fugi and yen was still 360 to the dollar. Of course back then also use dollars on Okinawa, and was there again before switch to yen. Believe seen an episode on Master Craftmen showing Japanese carpenter peeling shavings off a board same as you describe that long some time back.

All the Japanese woodturners have ever seen on video and demonstration only one stateside at AAW symposium do not use conventional turning tools.

Master fountain pen maker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F12qUyIACM

Bowl Turner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfvODFHEr4A

turning tool making
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLkMiHeRnaQ&list=PL-0ZrwYcqx9obL0ih9EfBYy8qxGeuDECe

Hard to tell what kind of tool being used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJlIXnMCbo

From doll turning demo saw at a symposium saw only couple different tools used by Japanese woodturners other than hook tools. Would not be surprised to see they have taken conventional carpentry tools converted to turning tools. That's where famous Bob Stockdale gouge originated.
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop_archive/images/turnings/turning_tools.jpg

Hook turning tools still popular wih many turners from around the world. Have attended classes on how to make & use hook tools. Never tried to make or use one for hollowing bowls or deep hollowing but they do an outstanding job.

Do strive for off the tool finish on surface of my turning but still require some sanding dur to bevel rubbing and burnishing the surface. Of course don't always achieve that goal!
 
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