Quality vs Luxury

[ed4copies]

I believe it was a luxury, subject to LUXURY TAX!!!!

PLEASE pay at this window!!!!

Paypal at : GeeThanksEdIDon'tKnowHowToRepayYou.Dollars!!

 

[jttheclockman]

I believe it was a luxury, subject to LUXURY TAX!!!!

PLEASE pay at this window!!!!

Paypal at : GeeThanksEdIDon'tKnowHowToRepayYou.Dollars!!

Can I pay you in Chinese pen parts???

 

[Smitty37]

CORRECTED

As you may or may not know...I build custom homes. Just for grins, I took a look at a brand new Square D panel that I have sitting in my warehouse. Made in USA. I then took a look at a brand new Square D breaker...you guessed it, Made in USA. Cooper wall switch...made in USA. Lutron dimmer...Made in Mexico.

Certainly not made in China but then again, these are known to be some of the best quality electrical components made.

If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.

 

[jttheclockman]

If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.

[PDF]
Identifying Counterfeit Square D Circuit Breakers

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Actual Square. D circuit breakers have: (a) the amp rating written on the handle in white paint on the front of the breaker;. [Note: Prior to 1999 the amp ...
www.lanl.gov/safety/.../counterfeit_squared_circuit_breakers.pdf - Similar

 

[Hucifer]

I picked my second Black & Decker because my first one lasted 42 years and is still going. I picked DeWalt because my 2nd Black & Decker didn't last a year. :biggrin:

Dewalt bought B&D so they could have a lower quality product at a lower price point to satisfy that part of the market... It doesn't mean that Dewalt is luxurious...

 

[Smitty37]

experience

It did occur to me that a car has thousands of moving parts--the pen components on a slimline have ONE moving part.

Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
Simple twist transmission
Plating durability
Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"

I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom. I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes. NOW, those prices are down considerably. But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits). A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.

So, now, I look for components that FIT. Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME. Plating does make a difference---to ME.

But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!

The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby. IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.

I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty. HE has represented these kits honestly. He stands behind them. His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.

My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye". We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.

So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money". NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!

In a few years, the Chinese will have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!! Just like Japan did.

Is there some good reason that people on this forum can't discuss quality without getting into China vs Taiwan?

What is quality is the issue...not who produces the best quality. I don't think I have ventured an opinion of who makes the best quality. Nor have I knocked the quality of kits produced by any manufacturer.

For $8 dollars you should get a "better" item than you get for $2, perhaps made from more durable raw materials but that is by definition luxury. For $20.00 you should get a "better" item than you do for $8. But, if all of the items meet their specifications then all are quality items. Whether or not they happen to be related to the hand turned pen making industry.

Hand made pens come in all sizes, shapes, colors and prices they are produced by expert wood turners, expert pen turners, people who are decent turners and folks who are novices. The whole industry does not get a black eye from a few bad pens any more than papermate gets a black eye when a pen or so doesn't work out of the box...and I've had that happen...I moaned and groaned a little and went and bought an new refill.

People who buy cheap kits, will stop buying them if they don't perform...unless you believe they are adicted to sending good money after bad or something. On measure of "quality" is customer satisfaction and customer satisfaction is based on many things including "value for dollar" and value for dollar means different things to different people. People, everyday, including you Ed, make decisions on what to buy and price does make a difference...how often in your life have you said ... well maybe I can get a little better '????" but this is what I can afford and it's the best I can get for that price....

To Bill Gates $250 for a pen is not even pocket change...to me that is totally nuts and no one of sound mind would pay it...but Mont Blanc and others are still considered the standard of luxury and quality.

 

[PR_Princess]

Can I pay you in Chinese pen parts???

Will that be floating in on a Chinese junk?

 

[jttheclockman]

Will that be floating in on a Chinese junk?

Good one!!! I got nothing


Wait I got it.

No, I got nothing.

 

[Smitty37]

Before I retired I spent close to 15 years repairing and calibrating the electronics that shut a nuclear reactor down if there was a problem. When I retired they let me choose my replacement. There were 5 guys that wanted my job. My interview was simple, here calibrate this ion chamber amplifier. Having calibrated this equipment for years I knew 1/1000 of a volt was relatively easily obtainable. The tolerance was 5/1000 of a volt. Only one of the 5 guys spent the time to get the calibration within 1/1000 of a volt, 3 were happy with the outside spec of 5/1000 of a volt the other was in between. Which one would you want calibrating the equipment for a nuclear power plant 5 miles from your home and family. Working on this stuff for years I found errors do not cancel each other out they add. That's where quality stands out.

So you are agreeing with me that exceeding requirements is better quality regardless of what the requirements are?

But the question is would you accept the ion amp if it could not be calibrated to better than spec?? You rightly took the position that the unit should be calibrated to the tightest tolerance it could meet which happened to be better than required. But what did you do when one would meet the spec but not exceed it?

I waged a lot of battles over issues like that in my 32 years in Test Engineering (we also calibrated a lot of stuff including the insturments used to calibrate the prime equipment). But when the issue is resolved it is usually if it meets spec it is by definition good. If it is not - change the spec.

 

[tim self]

I feel soooooooooooooooo much better now just knowing that is possible. Thanks for the heads up. That was a Quality answer or was that a LUXURY ???:bulgy-eyes::question::yin-yang::befuddled::befuddled:

The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.

 

[RAdams]

The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.

BEST POST OF THE ENTIRE THREAD!

 

[phillywood]

Have one qsn. how did the car discussion get into the pen kit?
then again, I have another Qsn. if you paid me $15 for a pen and it's plating wears off in 4 month. ( you make $29/HR) Vs. If you paid me $100 and you still make same ($29/hr) and plating wears oof after 2 years for instance. Do you think you will pick up the phone and call me to chew me out over the $15 pen when you would loose $14/hr to argue wih me Vs. when you call me over $100 pen and for the same amount of time we discuss the problem and you loose $71/hr? I think you'd go with the second answer and call me becuse you got more to loose and also you spent more. And for the first $15 pen, you'd probably throw it away and won't even bother me with it, but I will never see you again for repeat bus. But if i provided you wtih a good customer sevice and treated you right then we may sitill do bus. again.
Now who wants to go make soem pens to sell for $15?

 

[jttheclockman]

The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wildman]

Comparing a Mercedes to a Volkswagen is talking apples and oranges, no comparison. Consumer Reports recommends more Volkswagen than Mercedes. If you are talking performance, why not compare Mercedes to Porsche? Both makes are expensive to buy and own.

Has already said handcrafted pens are a luxury item for pen buyers. We live in a world of $1.99 buys a bag of BIC's. Whether people buying a $10 Slimline or $1,000 + pen, they want and expect both quality and luxury.

I cannot make a $2.00 Slimline pen for less than $10.00. My experience with $2.00 or less Slimline kits taught me not worth my time and effort. Component quality biggest issue and reason for not making cheap Slimline pen kits. I do not make better quality Slimline kits, because of competition from junk kits out there. I like to making Slimline pens! I see a lot of quality Slimline pens made everyday.

 

[Smitty37]

Why

The answer was quality, the action is luxury and this thread does not meet nor exceed my expectations of either.

Usually when threads don't meet my expectations I don't read them....of course maybe you'd just rather complain:biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

Quality

Comparing a Mercedes to a Volkswagen is talking apples and oranges, no comparison. Consumer Reports recommends more Volkswagen than Mercedes. If you are talking performance, why not compare Mercedes to Porsche? Both makes are expensive to buy and own.

Has already said handcrafted pens are a luxury item for pen buyers. We live in a world of $1.99 buys a bag of BIC's. Whether people buying a $10 Slimline or $1,000 + pen, they want and expect both quality and luxury.

I cannot make a $2.00 Slimline pen for less than $10.00. My experience with $2.00 or less Slimline kits taught me not worth my time and effort. Component quality biggest issue and reason for not making cheap Slimline pen kits. I do not make better quality Slimline kits, because of competition from junk kits out there. I like to making Slimline pens! I see a lot of quality Slimline pens made everyday.

Hey,,,get with the program. I was not comparing a Volkswagen with a Mercedes....you can substitute Yugo and Toyota or Chevy and Ford or Cadillac and Buick.....

Had crafted pens per se are a luxury item that nobody really needs...that has nothing to do with the quality. The quality is still conformance to requirements. And, luxury items do have requirements nobody wants to buy a luxury item that doesn't work.

So you are not competitive in making slimline pens....neither am I if I count anything for my labor...what does that have to do with quality? That's just not being able to meet the requirements of the market with a product that can be sold at the market price. Doesn't matter if the pen you make is good, bad or somewhere in between if you have to charge more than the market thinks its worth ya ain't gonna sell many.

 

[Smitty37]

counterfitting

[PDF]
Identifying Counterfeit Square D Circuit Breakers

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Actual Square. D circuit breakers have: (a) the amp rating written on the handle in white paint on the front of the breaker;. [Note: Prior to 1999 the amp ...
www.lanl.gov/safety/.../counterfeit_squared_circuit_breakers.pdf - Similar

Yep and years ago it was Calvin Kline jeans that were counterfitted...I think mostly in Malaysia and Russia.

 

[arioux]

Paying $4 instead of $2 for a kit and putting a lot more chance of having a satisfied custommer, for me this is not luxury, it's common business sense. As a matter of fact i pay a little more because i only use TI gold as my finish now. I don't advertise, i don't have a web site, mouth to ear is my best seller and that's where i invest.

And making $10 profit instead of $12. I can live with that.

Rejecting a company that have 20%+ failure ratio on their tranny, that's MY quality control.

 

[Smitty37]

corrected 2

If that is so, I stand corrected...the ones in my house are labeled made in China...the ones in my local hardware store say made in china and the last time I checked most of the ones at Lowes said made in china and All of the light fixtures at Lowes say made in china.

I also should tell you ..... my son-in-law is a full time contractor and I built my own small house in the Poconos on PA including doing all of my own electrical wiring, I also wired my basement to be a workshop in the house I live in now, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with such stuff either.

 

[arioux]

Made in China don't mean "scrap". Made in China means "beware, might be scrap" because they are in expending mode, with cheap labor and a lack of natural ressources. And i'm not talking about human right. Some company based in China have great product and just save on the labor but most of the time they have people on site and supply the base product. Other save of the labor and the basic product but still have someone on site. Other just don't care about anything and that unfortunately include most of the local Chinese company.
IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo (a Chines hown company) few years ago. Their agrement was that the IBM logo would stay on the machine for 5 years. And IBM engeneers where to suppervide the manufacturing. After the 5 years, IBM logo goes, engeneers goes. Result: The first bacth of Lenovo thinkpad T-61 that we receive was pure crap. On 500 machines, there was 4 different graphic cards, 3 different network controler, over 50 with faulty memories and the cover would not close well on many of the Laptop. The same thing happened to Toshiba few years ago. Since then they took back most of their manufacturing to Japan. Lenovo is reacting and trying to improve but for one, i had to respond to my boss about the product that i bought for the company and deal with dozens of angry users. Result, Lenovo out, HP in. I will still check Lenovo computer once in a while but i'm burned.

I just don't want that to happen to the pens i sell. And until i find a chinese kit that meet my expectation , i'll stick with the one that did not deceived me so far.

 

[Smitty37]

Understanding

Paying $4 instead of $2 for a kit and putting a lot more chance of having a satisfied custommer, for me this is not luxury, it's common business sense. As a matter of fact i pay a little more because i only use TI gold as my finish now. I don't advertise, i don't have a web site, mouth to ear is my best seller and that's where i invest.

And making $10 profit instead of $12. I can live with that.

Rejecting a company that have 20%+ failure ratio on their tranny, that's MY quality control.

You consider opting for luxury makes good business sense...people often do. That has nothing to do with quality. You think using only Titanium fittings makes your kits more saleable so that's what you do...makes perfect sense. How much more chance you have of having a satisfied customer is a guess...you guess one way others might guess another. One other thing...I could sell TI gold for $4.00 myself if I could get any from my supplier.

 

[RAdams]

I have looked over this thread a couple of times. It sems to me that no matter what anyone says about quality vs. luxury, Smitty, you will be the first to post and shoot them down.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Well QUALITY is also in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has a slightly different definition of "Quality". What one person considers good quality, Someone else would consider not so good quality. "Joe" is cool with the less expensive kits that won't quite last as long, but are much less expensive (trying to avoid the word "Cheap"). As has been mentioned over and over, "Joe's" Quality standards have been met with the less expensive kit. On the other hand, My quality standards have not been met with the less expensive kit, so for me, it is a low quality product.

When we are talking about MY MONEY, It is also MY DECISION as to where the line is at to seperate quality from non quality. The entire process has nothing to do with "Luxury".

A horse will get you across town just like a car will, but i doubt you would call that a quality ride. If you would, then you should put some sunscreen on your REDNECK!

For someone in Canada, Air Conditioning in a vehicle is a luxury. For someone in Florida, A.C. IS A MUST! (no, i can't spell neccessit.... nessicit.....nesicit.... yeah, that word... i cant spell it)

With that in mind, What one person considers a must for pen kit specs, may not be teh same as what someone else expects. If your own expectations have been met, then the product is quality. If they haven't been met, then it is low quality. If you have rediculously high standards, then everything is junk! Or if your standards are super low, then everything is awesome!

 

[Smitty37]

Thinking

I have looked over this thread a couple of times. It sems to me that no matter what anyone says about quality vs. luxury, Smitty, you will be the first to post and shoot them down.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Well QUALITY is also in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has a slightly different definition of "Quality". What one person considers good quality, Someone else would consider not so good quality. "Joe" is cool with the less expensive kits that won't quite last as long, but are much less expensive (trying to avoid the word "Cheap"). As has been mentioned over and over, "Joe's" Quality standards have been met with the less expensive kit. On the other hand, My quality standards have not been met with the less expensive kit, so for me, it is a low quality product.

When we are talking about MY MONEY, It is also MY DECISION as to where the line is at to seperate quality from non quality. The entire process has nothing to do with "Luxury".

A horse will get you across town just like a car will, but i doubt you would call that a quality ride. If you would, then you should put some sunscreen on your REDNECK!

For someone in Canada, Air Conditioning in a vehicle is a luxury. For someone in Florida, A.C. IS A MUST! (no, i can't spell neccessit.... nessicit.....nesicit.... yeah, that word... i cant spell it)

With that in mind, What one person considers a must for pen kit specs, may not be teh same as what someone else expects. If your own expectations have been met, then the product is quality. If they haven't been met, then it is low quality. If you have rediculously high standards, then everything is junk! Or if your standards are super low, then everything is awesome!

You are showing a perfect lack of understanding of anything I said. Quality is not in the eye of the beholder, luxury is. Beauty is.

Quality is conformance to requirements i.e....specifications.

AC or not AC isn't a quality issue...having an AC ... the AC must work...that is the quality issue. I was stationed in FL in the 1950's and I assure you that AC in a car is not an absolute requirement, it is nice but people drove all over the state without it in the 50's. It is luxury a luxury that Canadians don't need..

Your last paragraph is a perfect confusion of luxury rather than quality and by the way, money has nothing to do with quality your's or anyone elses. You certainly have every right to buy only what you want quality or otherwise.But a quality item meets its specification for everyone. If you don't like its specification that's fine don't buy it but that just means that you don't like it not that it's bad quality.

As to responding to the posts on this thread...It's my thread...I started it because I think this is an issue that people ought to discuss now and then. Posts like your prove I'm right...

If everybody decides what quality is on their own then none of us will ever know what quality is. BTW the Japanese went from being one of the worst manufacturing countries (quality wise) to about the best using my definition. I don't make these things up.

 

[ed4copies]

Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but I think I'm all done on this one. It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.

Most people do not know what quality control is all about. Or what really constitutes quality.

Would it be possible for us to make statements like this binding?????

Not to pick on you, Smitty-----MANY members say, "I'm done" or "I quit" or words to that effect. Can we sue for breach of contract, when they return???

 

[ThomJ]

Bang!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RAdams]

You are showing a perfect lack of understanding of anything I said. Quality is not in the eye of the beholder, luxury is. Beauty is.

Quality is conformance to requirements i.e....specifications.

AC or not AC isn't a quality issue...having an AC ... the AC must work...that is the quality issue. I was stationed in FL in the 1950's and I assure you that AC in a car is not an absolute requirement, it is nice but people drove all over the state without it in the 50's. It is luxury a luxury that Canadians don't need..

Your last paragraph is a perfect confusion of luxury rather than quality and by the way, money has nothing to do with quality your's or anyone elses. You certainly have every right to buy only what you want quality or otherwise.But a quality item meets its specification for everyone. If you don't like its specification that's fine don't buy it but that just means that you don't like it not that it's bad quality.

As to responding to the posts on this thread...It's my thread...I started it because I think this is an issue that people ought to discuss now and then. Posts like your prove I'm right...

If everybody decides what quality is on their own then none of us will ever know what quality is. BTW the Japanese went from being one of the worst manufacturing countries (quality wise) to about the best using my definition. I don't make these things up.

I could not disagree more. That sounds like a Dictator type statement. "There can be only one high quality, and I decide what that is". This is AMERICA. Everyone has the right to decide their own definition of quality. If it were music, movies, or Electrical products,,, We would be comparing regular stuff to "Bootleg". I have never heard anyone argue that their Bootleg stuff was high quality.

It is also an interesting study of Psychology to watch all the threads about quality that seem to be started by people who sell the lower quality stuff.

 

[Smitty37]

yup

Would it be possible for us to make statements like this binding?????

Not to pick on you, Smitty-----MANY members say, "I'm done" or "I quit" or words to that effect. Can we sue for breach of contract, when they return???

It was to pick on me Ed----and Yes, this being America (mostly) you can sue anybody for anything at anytime. We graduate more lawyers than we do engineers....that's probably why so many things are now being made in China.

 

[ed4copies]

Why pick on you? Cause most of the people who say that, I'm afraid would get pissed off. I figured you could "take it"---and you lived up to my expectations.

Thanks!!

 

[Smitty37]

Definition of quality

I could not disagree more. That sounds like a Dictator type statement. "There can be only one high quality, and I decide what that is". This is AMERICA. Everyone has the right to decide their own definition of quality. If it were music, movies, or Electrical products,,, We would be comparing regular stuff to "Bootleg". I have never heard anyone argue that their Bootleg stuff was high quality.

It is also an interesting study of Psychology to watch all the threads about quality that seem to be started by people who sell the lower quality stuff.

That is totally wrong...the definition of quality that I am using is the definition used by Quality Control Professionals all over the world and you are darn lucky that they use it and not your "dictatorial" definition of quality that says "Quality is what I say it is"....one of us did make that statement but it was you, not me. You certainly have the right to make any buying decision that you want, but you make most of your decisions on taste...not quality. The fact that you might like Bush's baked beans and I like Campbell's does not mean that Campbell's is higher quality for me and Bush's higher quality for you. It just means that we have different taste in baked beans, both can be very high or very low or somewhere in between in quality.

Bootleg music plays just fine on a lot of IPODs ....or whatever it is that young folks are playing music on these days....and there's a big market for it. Speaks more to the dishonesty of people (usually both the buyer and seller) than the quality of the music.

Here is what I have said right along "Quality is conformance to requirements (specifications) --- it means the same thing to everyone. An item either meets its specification or it does not.

Here is what you are saying "Quality is what I like --- it means nothing to anyone but you, if I am producing a product I can't use your definition to make it better because your definition applies only to you.

Sorry but your definition won'r make anything any better for anyone, including yourself.

 

[ed4copies]

25 years from now China will have called in our debts and taken over the
US, so it will be mandatory for you to change that opinion. :tongue:

Well, you'll have to get out the shovel and tap it on the lid in Morse Code!!

 

[Russianwolf]

So back to my first comment.

So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.

Sorry, I'll continue to disagree. Just because the manufacturer has low expectations/specs doesn't make it a higher quality product. It makes it acceptable to them. That's all. That's QC.

QC doesn't define quality, it only sets limits to acceptable quality for a very specific product.


In your original post, you said the VW was "higher quality" because it met it's spec while the Benz didn't meet it's spec. While true in a QC aspect, in terms of the definition I posted which came straight from the dictionary (not me),

9. ( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product

The Benz still showed superior performance in speed and is therefore of higher quality in speed.

As I've said, you are using a very specific, narrow definition of the word and it's not necessarily always the definition. The English language tends to be that way. So, while you are correct in a specifically QC defined way, you are not correct when the other definitions of the word are brought into play.

Edit: and Ed, now I'M done here. I have bog oak and Sandringham timbers to inspect.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Mike,
Those Sandringham timbers are a high quality turning product

 

[ed4copies]

Yes Mike,

Get them pieces of wood SHIPPED!!!!!

Thanks!!!

 

[Smitty37]

Partly true

No. Meeting your own specification is not quality, it is quality CONTROL.

The kind of 'quality' we speak of (when we talk quality components) refers
to a degree of excellence. The kind of 'quality' you use in your example
refers to is simply the properties of the product. Same word, alternate
definition.

What you say is partly true...but meeting your own definition is by definition quality...quality control is measuring and assuring that you meet your spec.

Degree of excellence is subjective opinion and as such is luxury or if you prefer taste. A product with a high degree of excellence that does not meet its own specification would by definition NOT be a quality product. A Rolex watch that doesn't work is not as good for telling time as a timex that does.

Another look at the term...a quality problem can be fixed, if it's out of spec I can fix it and bring it into spec. A degree of excellence problem can not be fixed without changing the specification.

If we are going to reach the point where we are known as manufacturers of quality products....we better know what quality is.

 

[sefali]

If we are going to reach the point where we are know as manufacturers of quality products....we better know what quality is.

That right there is funny.

 

[Smitty37]

Not so

So back to my first comment.



Sorry, I'll continue to disagree. Just because the manufacturer has low expectations/specs you seem to be saying here that designing a product for a particular (say low priced) market means low expectations...that doesn't make sense to me at all. doesn't make it a higher quality product. It makes it acceptable to them. That's all. That's QC. Assuring that a product meets it's spec is Quality Control the spec itself defines quality for that product.

QC doesn't define quality, it only sets limits to acceptable quality for a very specific product. All manufactured products are built to a specification...Quality Control checks, measures and assures conformance to that specification. Quality is conformance to specification.


In your original post, you said the VW was "higher quality" because it met it's spec while the Benz didn't meet it's spec. While true in a QC aspect, in terms of the definition I posted which came straight from the dictionary (not me),



The Benz still showed superior performance in speed and is therefore of higher quality in speed. Not so quality is not measured against the performance of another item it is conformance to it's own specification which it did not meet. If the speeds were measured in a Quality Control test the Benz would be tagged "Rejected" and the VW would be tagged "Passed" and if the Benz problem turned out to be not fixable they would either redesign or change the spec...that does not meet anyones definition of "higher quality" now does it.

As I've said, you are using a very specific, narrow definition of the word and it's not necessarily always the definition. The English language tends to be that way. So, while you are correct in a specifically QC defined way, you are not correct when the other definitions of the word are brought into play. If one is producing a product you still better understand that to build quality (even in your sense of the word) into the product you'd better understand and use quality in my sense of the word.

In casual conversation you are right...quality is used in all kinds of ways "Quality Time" is one of my favorites, every young parent talks about how important it is and none of them have any idea what it is. And yes, the English language tends to obscure the meaning of words...i.e what does "love" mean. I love my hat, I love my dog, I love my wife, I love ice cream....but some words...quality being one of them we'd better have them mean something. We suffered a lot of years and a lot of loss of market because too many people working for automobile companies (and others as well) thought about quality in your terms while the Japanese and Koreans thought about quality in mine -- and who was making the better quality cars? Toyota just passed GM as the largest car seller in the USA.

Edit: and Ed, now I'M done here. I have bog oak and Sandringham timbers to inspect.

A product that does not meet its specifications is NOT a better quality product than one that does. A Rolex watch that does not keep correct time (meet its spec) is not better quality than Timex that does. It is still more luxurious.

When applying the word to a manufactured product the only sensible definition of Quality is conformance to spec. Quality Control is assuring that the product meets its spec.

 

[Smitty37]

LOL

That right there is funny.

Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did. I don't think that's too funny.

 

[Russianwolf]

A product that does not meet its specifications is NOT a better quality product than one that does. A Rolex watch that does not keep correct time (meet its spec) is not better quality than Timex that does. It is still more luxurious.

When applying the word to a manufactured product the only sensible definition of Quality is conformance to spec. Quality Control is assuring that the product meets its spec.

uggg....... I said I was done here, now Ed's going to sue me.

In your above example, if both work. And the Rolex has a manufacturers spec of +-.1 seconds per hour in keeping time and the Timex has a manufactures spec of +-.5 seconds per hour in keeping time and you get the following actuals.

Rolex -.2 seconds per hour
Timex -.3 seconds per hour

Which is higher quality?

The Rolex doesn't meet the manufactures spec and the Timex does, but the quality of the Rolex is still better than the Timex. There isn't a way to argue against this FACT. -.2 is closer to 0 than -.3. Period. In the real world (not QC world) people will choose the -.2 over the -.3 with everything else being equal.

 

[Kaspar]

25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan. How do you feel about them now?

Where ever they stand now, Japan is on the wane. Their demographics are horrible, Tokyo is sucking the money and the life out of the rural areas and their younger people, who are smart enough to see it and don't want to be taxed at an 80% rate to support to social safety net, will leave as quick as they can. Brain Drain, I believe it is called.

China, because of its inhuman one-child-only policy is very likely to flip over into the same kind of demographic disaster, and I suspect they will do so without ever achieving the technological prowess, affluence or influence of Japan. As it stands now, aside from putting things together for US cheaper than any grown-up nation will, China adds no further value to what it produces. That's precisely why the jobs go there, and in the event that changes, or there is any kind of disruption, we would simply move on to the next cheap labor source.

My current (Chinese) metal lathe is accurate enough for me, and cheap. Congrats China, you're able to build a fairly accurate version of something that's been around for quite a while. I do think that when you need unquestionable quality, you buy American, or European. I would have a European (esp. Proxxon or Schaublin) or American made metal lathe (numerous), in a Hong Kong minute, if I could afford it. I may be able to one day.

 

[Russianwolf]

Toyota just passed GM as the largest car seller in the USA.

True, and how many recalls have they issued in the last year?????

Quality??????